Hello EAR, John and Doves,
I just want to take a few
minutes to follow up with EAR's latest Doves letter to me.
Hello EAR,
I really don't care to 'debate'
any of what you bring up. Preterists and
Dispensationalists have been doing this for years! I
certainly will not change your beliefs and you certainly
will not change mine. Each side has their own
reasons and their verses to support their beliefs. I
see no need to rehash any of that here.
However, I will address a few of
your 'concerns' and give a bit of information on Preterism
for those unfamiliar with this approach to eschatology.
For those who don't know what
preterism is (and I think there can be some variation in
beliefs among preterists) - "According to preterism, all
prophecy in the Bible is really history. The
preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of
Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century
conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end
times. The term preterism comes from the Latin
preter, meaning "past". Thus, preterism is the view
that the biblical prophecies concerning the 'end times"
have already been fulfilled - in the past. Preterism
is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times
prophecies as having a still-future-fullfillments.
Preterism is divided into two types: full
(or consistent) preterism and partial preterism."
"The preterist movement
essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of
the New Testament were fulfilled in 70 A.D. when
the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem.
Preterism teaches that every event normally associated
with the end times - Christ's second coming, the
tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final
judgment - has already happened. (In the case of the
final judgment, it is still in the process of being
fulfilled.) Jesus's return to earth was a
'spiritual' return not a physical one....Preterism
teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God's
covenant with Israel was ended. The "new heavens
and new earth" spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the
preterist, a description of the world under the New
Covenant....This aspect of preterism can easily
lead to a belief in replacement theology."
What is the preterist view of the end
times? | GotQuestions.org
And dispensationalists can vary
somewhat in their beliefs.
EAR, I do not know whether you
are a full or partial preterist - I'd lean towards
partial. ? And you may vary in your beliefs from
these two groups. You can certainly add to this....
I noted that in Steve Coerper's
last letter to you, he referred to your 'preterist'
response. And in some of your letters you refer to
Dispensationalist beliefs as something you don't agree
with.
You have written much that aligns with the above.
You wrote that Stephen's stoning/death in 34 AD ended the
70th Week. Jesus finished his work of salvation when He
was crucified and He fulfilled all the prophecies/tasks
given in Daniel 9:24. The horseman on the white
horse was the Holy Spirit who showed up in 70 A.D. and
that "Jerusalem and its children as remaining out of God's
presence or protection until Jesus returns as King and
Judge at His 2nd Coming."
As a dispensationalist, I believe
in none of that. As you already know.
I find it interesting that you
wrote (because I don't believe the prophecies/tasks of the
70th Week have all been fulfilled) "you obviously don't
believe that Jesus finished the work He was sent to do
during His First Coming! This leave me wondering
what you think the whole Gospel message is all about, and
whether or not you feel secure in your salvation. I
know for sure that Jesus' righteousness covers my sins for
all eternity!"
Is this just for ME - or is this
how you feel about all dispensationalists? Jesus'
blood covers all of our sins - there is no 'insecurity' in
God's grace! Ephesians 1:7
And you wrote, "Chance, you seem
to think that Jesus - when He returns at His Second Coming
- needs to be anointed by some mere human..." I
really have no idea where you got that from! He's
the Son of God.
It looks like for every question
you've asked me you have answered it with 'my
dispensational' beliefs. Your beliefs don't bother
me in the least, but you can't say that about how you feel
about my beliefs or all others who are
Dispensationalists. I find that interesting....
As for your ending
question: "Chance, I would really like to know what
more you expect Jesus to do when He comes at His Second
Coming, especially regarding the three tasks you listed
above. Do you have some references? How is
Jesus going to do more to achieve everlasting
righteousness, than what He has already done? He
said..."It is finished' (John 19:29) while on the cross."
You wrote, "Chance your opinion
saying the 'bringing in of everlasting righteousness,
sealing up the vision and prophecy and anointing the most
Holy' occurs at the Second Coming, ETC, disagrees with the
basic teaching in Romans, Hebrew, and other New Testament
books regarding the last three tasks listed in Daniel
9:24b, which you have quoted. I have
provided just some of the numerous New Testament
references showing the fulfillment of all six of these
tasks BY MESSIAH, which had to be completed for the
confirmation of the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27a."
EAR - To clarify, these
last three things ('bringing
in of everlasting righteousness, sealing up the vision
and prophecy and anointing the most Holy')
occur at the Second Coming, Judgment, plus - where
ever the 70th Week ends. As these things
are decreed for the 70 weeks.
In response: I am not
seeing anywhere in Daniel 9 where Jesus, the Messiah, is
the 'subject' of these tasks; these are not decreed for
Jesus. (In other words, I am not seeing that
'Seventy weeks have been decreed for
Jesus, the coming Messiah") The PEOPLE and JERUSALEM
are the 'subjects' (or beneficiaries of) this decree.
These things must happen for THEM.
Not for Jesus and not for Gentiles. (You wrote that
Jesus fulfilled all of these tasks to
confirm the covenant. I am not seeing that this
decree is in anyway tied to a covenant.) God was
telling Daniel what was going to happen to his people and
Jerusalem.
These things are decreed
(an official statement that these things must happen)
for 'your people and your holy city' in this Seventy
Weeks. The transgression is to be
finished for the people and the city. The end of sin
is to happen for the people and the city. Atonement
for iniquity is to occur for the people and the
city. Everlasting righteousness is to be brought to
the people and the city, the vision and prophecy are to be
sealed for the people and the city; and the holy city is
to be anointed. And these are not connected to the
confirmation of any covenant. This is about the
people and Jerusalem. It doesn't specify how this happens
- but it's in God's will - He decrees it.
Are these all future?
I have thought that the first three happened when Jesus
finished His work here on Earth. But maybe
not. I've read several articles that place one or
two with Jesus death and the rest at the end. And
I've read that they are all future. Here's one such
article:
What Does Daniel 9:24 Mean?
In Daniel 9:24, Daniel is told by
Gabriel: "Seventy weeks have been decreed for
your people and your holy city - to finish the
transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement
for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to
seal the vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy
(place)." ('Place' is added in many translations as
the 'most holy' refers to the previous subject 'holy city'
in this sentence. This is not about anointing
Jesus.)
This prophecy as it says is for
'your people' and 'your holy city'. Daniel's people
and Jerusalem. This is not about Gentiles. The
angel tells Daniel the purpose of the 70 Weeks - the end
of these 70 weeks must accomplish these things = like a
'to do' list of tasks. It does not say that these
are about Jesus - that He must do these tasks or that
these tasks are about Him. They are for Daniel's people and Jerusalem
- what will happen to them.
The completion of this list will fulfill God's will.
Maybe all of these 'tasks' will be
completed at some time after the Second Coming - not just
the last three like I had thought. Ted Porter
mentions this in his 16 Apr letter, "My thoughts are all
of these events will be fulfilled at the same time, at the
end of time, when eternity begins." hmmm.
EAR and Daniel’s 70th Week – Response to
Chance
Back to your letter - your letter
specifically asks about the last 3:
1) To bring in everlasting
righteousness.
2) To seal up the vision
and prophecy.
3) And to anoint the Most
Holy place. That's Jerusalem. Set aside for
divine use. This makes sense, since the decree is
FOR Jerusalem. And in The Revelation we are told
about the holy city - the New Jerusalem.
These things are not about Jesus
or Gentiles or what verses are in the New Testament.
God Himself is telling Daniel what will happen to
the Jews and Jerusalem. Nothing needs to be
added. And nothing should be taken away. They are
about the people and the 'holy' city (Daniel's people and
holy city) - the Jews and Jerusalem. These tasks
will be fulfilled. I am leaning towards ALL will be
fulfilled/finished at The End..as these certainly have not
all already happened. Why break them up?
I can see how All of these tasks
could be finished at the end of the 70th Week - the Jewish
rebellion against God will end (finish the transgression),
the Jewish remnant will accept Jesus as their Messiah
(make reconciliation for iniquity), the Jewish remnant
will have glorified/sinless bodies (make an end to sin),
the Messiah will start His earthly reign (bringing in the
everlasting righteousness); these visions and prophecy
will be completed (seal up visions and prophecy) and the
New Jerusalem will be set aside as divine/anointed (anoint
the Most Holy). I see Revelation 21 addressing these
things.
So what can I say to someone who
believes the prophecies and tasks of the 70th Week have
been fulfilled? That all have been fulfilled by 70
AD? Nothing.
So I'll just default to
God: Rev 21: 1-6 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new
earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away and
the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the
new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from
God, prepared as a bride adorned for
her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the
throne saying: "Behold, the dwelling place of God
is with man, and He will dwell with
them. They will be His
people and God Himself will be
with them as their God. He will wipe away
every tear from their eyes; and there will be no more
death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things
have passed away." And the One seated on the throne
said, "Behold, I make all things new." Then He said,
"Write this down, for these words are faithful and
true. And He told me, "It is
done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the
Beginning and the End." God sees all the
prophecies/tasks/all He wills are done - He declares it is
DONE. (When Jesus finished His work on Earth, He
said "It is finished.")
Revelation 22:3 "No longer will
there be any curse. The throne of God
and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His
servants will worship Him. They
will see His face and His name will be on their
foreheads."
These verses are all about the
holy city and the people. All the tasks of Daniel
9:24 are now completed.
Revelation 22:12: "Behold,
I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to
each one according to what he has done. I am the
Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning
and the End."
And who will live in this holy
city? The Called, the Chosen, and the Faithful.
And for Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant
with many...He will put an end to sacrifice and
offering." He is Jesus. Jesus did these
things. He was the last Passover lamb. The
curtain to the Holy of Holies was rent in two. Now
everyone is covered by the blood of the Lamb - and His
Word will be written in the hearts of His people.
That's what Jesus did. He fulfilled the will of
His Father.
I believe that time is short -
we are fast approaching the Rapture and the Tribulation
Period. People believe what they want to
believe. Everyone has picked a side.
To quote Hillary Clinton, "What
difference at this point does it make?" We are so
late into this...and preterists have their verses,
dispensationalists have their verses and on it goes!
I do believe that God will sort it all out. Everyone
can interpret verses how ever it makes sense to
them. And there will be much disagreement.
I, personally, am more interested
in End Times and Bible Prophecy and the news of today as
it relates to these Last Days. That doesn't
leave me with much in common with someone who holds to
preterist beliefs.
I prefer to write about End
Times, news pointing to that and any news that can help
get us through all of this. Knowledge is
power. And knowing what the enemy is up to is a big
part of the battle. And sometimes we have to stand
up for what we believe to be right.
I have nothing more to write -
your beliefs are NOT mine. You can reply or not -
challenging me on preterist beliefs will go nowhere.
Let the "chips fall where they may."
I am looking forward to that new
heaven and new earth and the new Holy City of Jerusalem
and all the former things have been wiped away! And
God, Himself, will be with us. And we will see His face.
Amen.
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!
Maranatha!
Chance