This is in reply to your 7/14 post Reply to Donna Danna (7 July 2024) re "Fallen Angels That Aren't Chained Up" (fivedoves.com)

in which you stated the following:

"What we haven't debated, I don't believe, is the story of Sodom & Gomorrah.  That's another very interesting, tangled topic.  You said, "The two angels who appeared to Lot in the city of Sodom in Genesis 19:1-5 looked like men to the men of the city of Sodom & Gomorrah who wanted to have sex with them."

 

(MY REPLY: As for Sodom & Gomorrah, notice the Bible verses below because they (Sodom & Gomorrah) "in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh" which means the men in Sodom & Gomorrah in like manner did what the chained up angels did who kept not their first estate who went after strange flesh and gave themselves over to fornication which means the fallen angels were capable of having sex.  Men having sex with men in Sodom & Gomorrah was the strange flesh while the fallen angels having sex with women was the strange flesh because they weren't supposed to do that.)

Jude 1:6-7, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

You also stated the following:

"My youngest brother attended Bob Jones University for a while.  While there he studied the Bible in the original Mazoretic text of the Pentateuch and looked back at the original transcript of the story about Lot and his two daughters.  That version about the men of the city wanting Lot to hand over the two angels to them is not in the original transcripts, nor is it true that Lot offered his daughters to them instead."  

 

 "The KJV Bible we are reading today is not the Bible of the 1800s which had no verses against gays.  The Roman Catholic church, via a monk named Damian, changed the text to create story lines that didn't exist previous to the King James.  The scriptures were thus perverted by creating homosexual stories in the Bible so gays -- like King James who was also gay -- would be charged $5K to $50K (if they were rich) to make 'penance' for their sins.  That's how the Roman Catholics came up with money to build their huge cathedrals."

 

 "In the original manuscript there is no mention of homosexuality, nor of Lot offering his daughters to rioters and no lust for visiting angels, but it does mention that Lot carved idols for a living which apparently was considered too much of an embarassment to the translators, and therefore, for reasons of religious correctness was omitted from the story we have today."

"Regarding "same sex" relations - where the Bible presently says 'man shall not lie with man,' is not what the original manuscripts said.  It actually meant "man shall not lie to God Almighty as the heathen do."  The meaning changed over the centuries as you will see below."

 

"For instance, it said:  "Ish (man) shall not lie with Zakar."  The most current translation said "Zakar" meant a minor who hadn't gone through his bar mitzvah yet -- a pre-12 yr. old, meaning a man should not molest a child / should not lie with a minor / avoid appearance of evil.  An earlier translation than that said "Zakar" was a nobleman, mayor, governor, rulers:  Keep your hands off young boys to avoid appearance of evil.  A discontinued version of Strong's & Young's Concordance said "Zakar" is a young prince.  300 years earlier - Babylonia era - they said "lie" = you shall not lie to the princes who represent the king."

(MY REPLY: As for the KJV Bible of the 1800's having no verses against homosexuals, here is the text from the KJV Bible of 1769 edition translated from the Masoretic text at Genesis 19 - Hebrew English Translation Massoretic Text MT Interlinear Holy Name King James Version KJV Strong's Concordance Online Parallel Bible Study (qbible.com) which shows the men in Genesis 19 wanting to know (have sex with) the 2 angels. Then if you click the book of Leviticus on the right side of the page, Lev. 18:22, it says, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it (is) an abomination." Leviticus 18 - Hebrew English Translation Massoretic Text MT Interlinear Holy Name King James Version KJV Strong's Concordance Online Parallel Bible Study (qbible.com)  Also Leviticus 20:13 which says, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they surely be put to death; their blood (shall be) upon them." Leviticus 20 - Hebrew English Translation Massoretic Text MT Interlinear Holy Name King James Version KJV Strong's Concordance Online Parallel Bible Study (qbible.com) These verses are from the 1769 edition of KJV Bible translated from the Masoretic text so it is not true that the Masoretic text and the King James Bible was different from the KJV of today as they both have same verses in regard to homosexuality.  Also don't forget that the New Testament in the KJV Bible also contains verses against homosexuality in Romans 1:28-29& 1 Corin. 6:9-10.

The Masoretic text of the Old Testament was written between the 7th & 10th centuries A.D. according to Masoretic Text - Wikipedia  

The first 5 books of Moses in the Greek Septuagint of the OT was written as early as the late part of 2nd century BC according to Read the Septuagint Bible w/ Apocrypha Free Online (biblestudytools.com) In the Septuagint Bible, Leviticus 18:22 says, "And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination." according to Leviticus 18 - LXX - Bible Study Tools

Leviticus 20:13 says,"And whoever shall lie with a male as with a woman, they have both wrought abomination; let them die the death, they are guilty," according to Leviticus 20 - LXX - Bible Study Tools 

Then there is the Latin Vulgate of the OT written in 382 A.D. according to Vulgate Latin Bible With English Translation) Lev. 18:22 says, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: because it is an abomination." according to Latin Vulgate Old Testament Bible - Leviticus 18  Lev. 20:13 says, "If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination: let them be put to death. Their blood be upon them." according to Latin Vulgate Old Testament Bible - Leviticus 20 )

You also stated the following:

 "Here is more information that may surprise you about the story of Sodom & Gomorrah:      Sodom's sin was not for homosexuality.  The real reason why God punished Sodom:

 

    Ezekiel 16:48-50 "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.  Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (Ed., Instead, the city of Sodom was punishing Lot's daughters who helped the poor and needy.)  And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."  Note, this occurred before the laws of Moses had been given to mankind by God.  Hospitality was considered very important.  Even Abraham found favor with God by showing hospitality to the Trinity that visited him one day."

(MY REPLY:  I was already aware of the above Bible verses, but please note the word PRIDE in the above verses which can very well include "gay pride" or homosexual pride" since homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord according to Lev. 18:22 & Lev. 20:13. The word "abomination" is used in the above Bible verses.)

(No, I don't believe that Jesus was an angel in my following statement below:  Thanks for pointing out that I used the words "other angels" and "1 Colossians" which were both mistakes on my part since all the angels were created by the Lord Jesus Christ and there is no 1 Colossians. It should have written Colossians 1:13-16.)  

"As for Hebrews 1:5, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Jesus Christ who pre-existed is God, the Father's only begotten Son conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.  All the other angels were created by the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Colossians 1:13-16), but they are called sons of God in Genesis 6:2, 6:4 & in the book of Job 1:6, 2:1, & 38:7.  The sons of God (fallen angels) in the book of Genesis went into the daughters of women and produced the giants; the giants were not created by the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God because of the way He was conceived when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Virgin Mary (Luke 1:35), and He took on human form in a physical body which no angels have done as they were created as ministering spirits (Heb. 1:14) so they can never be called God the Father's only begotten Son or begotten Sons.  Angels as spirits would be able to shapeshift to look like men just as demonic familiar spirits can.   The two angels who appeared to Lot in the city of Sodom in Genesis 19:1-5 looked like men to the men of the city of Sodom & Gomorrah who wanted to have sex with them.

(Actually at the time I wrote the above statement, I was thinking about the Lucifer, the covering cherub in Ezekiel 28:14-15 who was perfect in all his ways in the day that he was created until iniquity was found in him. I was going to say Lucifer and all the other angels were created by the Lord Jesus Christ, but omitted Lucifer from the sentence and forgot to leave out the word other.)

( As for your believing that we pre-existed with God and may be the morning stars and sons of God in Job 1:6, 2:1 & 38:7 based on Jeremiah 1:5, Jeremiah 1:5 which says "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee...".  I believe that Bible verse means since God is all knowing, He knows everything in the future that is going to happen and who will be born.)

You also stated the following:

"The reference made to Revelation 12:13-17 paints a picture that appears as all one incident but is actually made up of several.  It says, "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the Earth he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."  In this prophetic scenario time periods between events aren't specified.  It is told as though it is all one story.  How long was it after the dragon was cast to the Earth that he began to persecute the woman (Israel)?  Since he was cast down at the beginning there is a long stretch before the nation of Israel is created and the 'end times' scenario plays out."

(MY REPLY: It wouldn't take the dragon, Satan, 6,000 years after he was cast to Earth to see that he was on Earth because it says, "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the Earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel)who brought forth the man child." It was something that he immediately did.  So I don't see any time gap between him being cast to Earth and his persecuting the woman (Israel).  As I stated before, Lucifer fallen from heaven depicted in Isaiah 14:12 is a different event.)