Reply to Marilyn Agee
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2013/marilyna88-2.htmMy previous post: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2013/billg86.htm
Hi Marilyn,I have to point out some things before we finally agree to disagree, as you said.
Per the Blue Letter Bible, the word "Saints" (g40 Link) in Rev 5:8 is an adjective, not a noun. "Prayers" (g4335) is the noun that "Saints" describes. There aren't Saints in this verse, just "the prayers of the saints". "They" who sing a new song in 5:9 would apply to the 4 Living Creatures and the 24 Elders in Rev 5:8. I agree with the ESV translation over the KJV in this passage.Rev 5:8-10 ESV "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
Rev 5:11-14 ESV "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped."1 Thess 4:13-18 refers to the Main Pre-Wrath Rapture event, the "Gathering together of the Elect" at the Sixth Seal (Rev 6:12-17, Rev 7:9-17, Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), because of the phrase "unto the Coming of the Lord" and because "the dead in Christ" are not raised at the earlier "Open Door" Rapture event, which I believe is a secret event that will go unnoticed by the world. The "Open Door" is not a duplicate "Gathering together of the Elect" which is why scripture gives them different names. The Apostle John (Rev 4:1-2, A.D. 90's) and the Apostle Paul (2 Cor 12:2-4) were both caught up through an "Open Door" that didn't necessitate the Lord Jesus Christ coming back in the sky.
At the "Gathering together of the Elect" we see the Unsaved trying to hide themselves, even telling the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. It's too late because they have already received the Mark of the Beast. Try placing this event prior to the Mark of the Beast. Why would anyone follow Antichrist and take his Mark after seeing Christ come in the sky? Therefore, the "Open Door" will be unseen by the unsaved world. The "Open Door" is to escape the persecution of Antichrist by the "worthy to escape" per the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev 3:8,10 and Luke 21:34-36). The Dead in Christ don't need to escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
1 Thess 4:13-18 KJV "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again (i.e. All Born Again Christians), even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (Again, same criteria). For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (not an Open Door): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the Air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
The Apostle Paul was caught up to the third heaven in 2 Cor 12:2-4. In verse 4, he tells us he learned things he was not allowed to share.
2 Cor 12:2-4 KJV "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
It's my opinion that the "Gathering together of the Elect" was given to the Apostle Paul to explain, but he was kept from explaining the "Open Door" because the destruction of Jerusalem had not happened yet. The "Open Door" was not explained until after 70 A.D., so the Christians in Jerusalem would not be confused about their instructions to flee per the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Olivet Discourse. The "Open Door" was reserved to be explained by the Lord Jesus Christ to the Apostle John in Revelation chapters 2 & 3 in the letters to the Seven Churches, as well as being alluded to by the Lord in Luke 21:34-36. Please don't ignore the instructions to always Repent and be Ready.YBIC,
Bill Griese