Reply to Marilyn Agee
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2013/marilyna84-1.htmMy previous post: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/billg730.htm
Hi,
I checked a Scofield 1 Bible and the note Laurie referenced was not in it, as you indicated, so Laurie must have the Scofield 2. However, this doesn't change things for me. Many ancient Greek manuscripts, the consensus of contemporary scholarship, and many English Bible Versions omit "us" in Rev 5:9 and use "them" instead of "us" and "they" instead of "we" in Rev 5:10. The context of the word "saints" in Rev 5:8 refers to the "prayers of the saints." The "prayers of the saints" aren't singing a new song in Rev 5:9, it's the Four Beasts and Twenty-four Elders who sing a new song. The phrase "hast redeemed" in the song refers to Calvary, and doesn't indicate a Rapture. In Rev 5:11-12, there are listed Many Angels, Four Beasts, and the 24 Elders, but no Church, it is assumed. I believe that the 24 Elders are Redeemed Old Testament Saints, and are not part of the Church. When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected many Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many.
Matt 27:50-53 KJV "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the (Old Testament) Saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."Acts 6:7 KJV "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."
The Old Testament Saints that arose included priests who went into the city and appeared to their Levitical Priest descendants causing many to believe. I believe the 24 Elders are from this group. The Lord told the 12 Apostles that they would sit on 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt 19:28). This doesn't make them part of the 24 Elders before the Throne of God in Heaven. The Apostle John in Rev 4:4, saw 24 Elders sitting on 24 seats around God's throne, and he was not one of them. I just don't see anything that makes me believe that John was both "narrator and actor" as you stated. Sorry, I don't see the Church in Heaven in Revelation chapters 4 & 5, and I certainly don't believe that I'm forcing the scriptures to say what I want them to say.
Rev 11:18 KJV "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
The rewards are given to the Saints (in Rev 11:18) after the Seventh Trumpet (in Rev 11:15), not before the First Seal. Therefore, the 24 Elders Crowns in Revelation chapter 4 are not from the rewards to the Saints. This indicates they are not part of the Church and eliminates their Crowns as proof of a Rev 4:1 Rapture.
We are a mere ten days apart on the timing of the First Rapture event. I've said numerous times that Rev 2:10's "ten days" may be a timing clue, and that I would put the "Open Door" ten days following the Abomination of Desolation, which is ten days after your view. The Satanically indwelt Antichrist is tied up chasing the 144,000 (plus others who are not counted) into the wilderness, and disengages with them only after God's supernatural protection stops him. Antichrist then turns his attention on the remnant of the Saints (Rev 12:6-17). Ten days into the Great Tribulation?However, we appear to have a major difference of opinion on the First Rapture event itself. There is no resurrection of the Dead in Christ at the "Open Door", which I believe is a secret event that will go unnoticed by the world. Christ only appears in the sky and resurrects the Dead in Christ at the "Gathering together of the Elect", which is the Main 2nd Rapture event (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Rev 6:12-17, Rev 7:9-17). The "Open Door" is not a duplicate "Gathering together of the Elect" which is why scripture gives them different names. Both the Apostle John (Rev 4:1-2, A.D. 90's) and the Apostle Paul (2 Cor 12:2-4) were caught up through an "Open Door" which didn't necessitate Christ coming back in the sky.
In Rev 6:12-17, at the Sixth Seal, we see all the unsaved who see the Lord Jesus Christ coming in the sky at the "Gathering together of the Elect" trying to hide themselves, even telling the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. They know it's too late, having already received the Mark of the Beast. Now, you can imagine placing this event prior to the Mark of the Beast. Do you think anyone would follow Antichrist and take his Mark after seeing Christ come in the sky? Very few, if any! Therefore, the "Open Door" can only be an event unseen by the world. The "Open Door" is an event to escape the persecution of Antichrist by those found "worthy to escape" per the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev 3:8,10, Luke 21:34-36). The Dead in Christ certainly have no need to escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
Rev 6:12-17 KJV "And I beheld when he had opened the Sixth Seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Luke 21:34-36 KJV "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always (repenting), that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
YBIC,
Bill Griese