I have been pre tribulation in my rapture belief all my years of study. But things just did not ads up for me seeing what signs we are seeing and still being here.

This is also true of my talking to those who profess a post tribulation view. If the rapture were post tribulation where is the hope?

If the rapture is not pre tribulation a lot of people's faith will be shaken.

Being that most Church going Christians run from discussions on the rapture using phrases borrowed from their pastors one sermon on it I quote no one knows the day or hour font worry it will all pan out in the end!

But did not Jesus say to watch, and if we did not watch He would come upon us like a thief!

The bible says people will be eating drinking marrying getting married buying and selling just like till the day Noah entered the ark and Lot left sodom.

Notice this parallels the rapture. Cannot be post tribulation. What does the bible KJV say?

Revelation 6:15

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Why because Gods Wrath has come!

When the great sixth seal earthquake!

What are those in the light promised?

KJV 1st Thessalonians 5:9

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The wrath is when they hide in the rocks and caves!

Don't take my word for it.


Revelation 6:16

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The Lamb of God! Ok the wrath happens when after the first five seals the beginning of sorrows.

Seal one white horse conquers through peace! Arab spring?

Second seal peace taken. Look at the wars and rumors now!

Third seal economic collapse. Everyone not watching thinks there 401k will just keep growing and it's ok to get .005 percent on any savings you have.

Fourth seal famine disease pestilence. Just read the news!

Fifth seal again read the news!

Ok so first through fifth seal stuff is happening or beginning to happen is this what Jesus meant the beginning of sorrows?

A post here said Matthew 24 was meant for the Jews not us. But Jesus was describing the signs of the end for them that those in they generation us would and are seeing a dual purpose!

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV)

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

King James Version

Mathew 24 is a very important passage for us it so happens I was compelled to respond to this debate since it holds very timely clues to discern where the rapture falls in the chronology.

The world is not watching for Christ to come back they don't want Him to. Most Christians are uncomfortable with end times and prophecy. What did Jesus say they will draw unto themselves teachers saying things to soothe their ears and no longer endure sound doctrine.

Why because we are sinners with no hope condemned apart from God and Jesus correct. But the teach them to obey all things I commanded you part of the gospel is usually ignored because it does away with the don't worry don't watch pan out in the end soothing words seeker friendly nothing is required after your profession of faith lukewarm churchianity.

Jesus said it better:

Revelation 3:

14“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. KJV

They don't know they are not ok so they don't watch, don't seek to put on Jesus righteousness or seek to see the truth.

Look at Jesus words to the church of Philadelphia:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

What have they done? Not denied His name. - profession of Faith

Kept his word! - teach them to obey all I commanded you!

Mark 13:37

And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Sounds like we are expected to!

Well what does it say at the sixth seal?

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. KJV

That in my humble opinion is the Philadelphia church the rapture!

Look at Mathew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Some commentaries say this refers to the second coming? I have read a re read and it all matches the rapture.

Look at Mark:

Mark 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. KJV

Ok see what I mean!

Let's read the quintessential rapture verse!

1st  Thessalonians 4: 16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Ok the trumpet the angels gathering the elect.

It fits revelation 7, Mathew 24:31, Mark 13:27.

This points to the rapture before Gods wrath at the sixth seal just by matching the passages. How does it not? I used the passages I have found that correlate.

Here is the thing going off Mathew 24 Jesus description of the beginning of sorrows matches the five seals.

Jesus tells the Jews to flee around verse 21 he's speaking of great tribulation and the abomination. I am still saying the rapture will be before the mob and abomination but that what we view as the beginning of the tribulation verses the end of the beginning of sorrows may be wrong.

Pre tribulation and pre wrath depend on when you define the terms.

From the bible itself we are promised to be saved from the wrath the wrath clearly occurs at the sixth seal when they hide! But guys this may be the end of sorrows and the beginning of the great tribulation as well.

I refuse to say I am pre trib of wrath anymore I just want to seek Gods word and discern when He is coming.

But I know one thing those who say we are not commanded to watch and try and figure this out are wrong.

To say we cannot go directly to Gods word and compare scripture and ask for discernment is wrong.

Do not take my word do what I have compare these verses seek more and buy some salve.

This is important because if the pre tribbers see the third seal they will lose faith but their more right then they know its just Gpd who defines what's the beginning of sorrows the end of sorrows His wrath And the great tribulation and commands us to watch and study to discern

Mathew 24 speaks to both the Jews then us now and the jews In the tribulation.

It also in my discernment lines up with the scripture above to point to a last second at the sixth seal rescue for those ready and watching.