Donna and Steve,

Thank you both for taking the time to reply to me, seriously, I am glad that you did.

When looking at the various things that people have said about this, and similar things,

I realize that much of the difference arises from how one believes the layout of the book is.

When I was first saved, I was taught certain things, and then books that I read agreed with what I was taught.

Then the pastor of the church I attended did a weekly study of eschatology on Wednesday nights.

He began the series at the eternal state in the new Jerusalem, and worked backwards to the blessed hope.

He did that, I believe, to make us pay closer attention, and to think more about what he was saying.

He explained that there are various views of the layout of the book of Revelation.

One was the strict chronological layout, that everything will happen in the order that appears in the book.

Another view is mostly chronological, where some parts are parenthetical

(this was adapted where the strict chronological view, appeared to have some difficulty for those parts).

Another view is the parallel view, where many things happen in parallel,

(e.g. that both the trumpet & vial which have to do with the Euphrates, are simultaneous)

Another view is the expanding telescope view, where he described those old telescopes,

where out of the wider tube comes a thinner tube, and then out of that comes an even thinner tube;

that he described as all the trumpet judgments occur during the last 2 or 3 seal judgments,

and that all the vial judgments happen during the last couple trumpet judgments,

and that 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial are all simultaneous, at the time of the second advent.

Another view is a combination of the previous two, with the telescope view of the judgments,

but parallel view of many other parts, that the adapted chronological view considered parenthetical,

and some parts simultaneous with one in heaven, and the other on the earth,

and some even out of sequence, e.g. the winepress of the grapes of wrath trodden in chapter 14,

even before the vial judgments are discussed, before the 6th vial where the gathering at Armageddon happens,

which makes that part in chapter 14, kind of a preview of what will happen when Jesus returns.

At the time, I appreciated his lessons, but I stuck the strict chronological view that I had been first taught.

A number of years later, when I was considering the following:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

  13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

  14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

  15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

  16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

  17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I started asking if there was any possible way that this might be describing things at the end of the tribulation,

rather than a number of years before that.

I know that this shook things up, and I kind of looked like an heretic by even asking it.

I had wondered, that since the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together,

if it would then stay that way for all the remaining years of the tribulation.

I had wondered if those kings, rich men, etc., remained hid for all the remaining years of the tribulation,

i.e. did others become kings in their places, and then these new kings were brought to Armageddon.

I wondered how did they know that they were hiding from the face of him on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb?

Right now, if there were suddenly severe warfare, famine, earthquakes, etc., would muslims and communists, around the world,

immediately change their beliefs, and believe that it is the God of Israel that they will face,

and that they are currently suffering the wrath of Jesus, all these changes without significant preaching, first?

I had wondered, since they knew that it was the day of his wrath, then would the vials be poured out on a subsequent day of his wrath?

Anyway, I was starting to look more and more like an heretic, realizing that it would be "safer" for me to stick with the chronological view.

And to stop wondering about, or asking questions, that rocked the boat for others that I knew.

So for a while I remained safe.

But later on, the questions came back, causing me to wonder again, and I started asking them here, on FiveDoves.

I cannot say dogmatically, many of the eschatological things, will happen as I personally believe that they will.

Many in Israel had some pretty well developed prophetic views surrounding the coming of the Messiah.

However, Jesus apparently popped everyone's bubble, with things being very different than they expected.

I'm inclined to think that Jesus could do that again, regarding endtimes prophetic views.

He could very well pop my bubble, completely, and maybe many of everyone else.

He could leave us all speechless, doing things better than any of us have "figured out".

So, for most of the years that I was saved, I believed that the two witnesses are here for 3.5 years before the great tribulation.

Only very, very recently, I have begun to wonder, and consider, that they may be here for the great tribulation itself.

You both bring up some good points.

I think that I may, after all this time, have begun considering that 5th view of the layout of the book of Revelation.

With that in mind, things that use to dissuade some thoughts, no longer do, when looked at within that different view.

Also, I don't think that four of those views are necessarily heresy.

None of us knows eschatology perfectly, we all look like heretics to someone else.

As a side note, the apostle John is a human being, and therefore can only see, hear, and do things, one after the other.

That may have much to do with his phrases like, "And after these things I saw", or, "After this I beheld", or, "then".

John saw one thing, "then" he saw another thing, "then after" that he saw another, etc.

That is how he experienced the book of Revelation.

Does that then guarantee that this will be exactly how it all happens?

Must one thing happen before another thing can, since that is how John saw things?

Cannot many things in the book of Revelation happen simultaneously?

e.g plagues in one place, while at the same time they are worshipping in heaven,

while at the same time they are still living deliciously in Mystery, Babylon?

Yes, they can happen at the same time, but does that mean that they will?

John, as a human being couldn't be omnipresent, hearing and seeing concurrent events together.

He could only see or hear them one at a time.

The entire Bible is not laid out strictly chronologically, i.e. Jesus didn't have four, back-to-back earthly ministries.

No, the four gospels are four different views of the same one earthly ministry.

The order things appear not always reflect that this is absolutely the order they occurred, or will yet occur.