Hi:
> I wholeheartedly believe in the Trinity. HOWEVER, not all 3 persons
> of the Trinity became incarnate.
2Co_5:19 says, "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto
HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us
the word of reconciliation."
Joh_10:30 says, "I and my Father are one."
> "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
> Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5.
That explains my belief perfectly.
> Yes, Jesus is Deity, but He purposely limited Himself through the
> Incarnation.
I don't think he was actually limited. The Universe didn't fall apart.
> “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in
> the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made
> himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and
> was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he
> humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the
> cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name
> which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should
> bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the
> earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
> to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:5-11.
Amen.
> Scripture clearly tells us that when Jesus was on earth, He was not in
> heaven:
God cannot be confined. He is everywhere.
Act_17:28 says, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being."
> "Jesus said to her, 'Mary.' She turned toward him and cried out in
> Aramaic, 'Rabboni!' (which means Teacher). Jesus said, 'Do not hold on
> to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my
> brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to
> my God and your God.'" John 20:16-17.
Joh 20:17 (KJV) says, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet
ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend
unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
Jesus has a throne on Saturn. It is the throne of the Father and the Son.
Eze 1:1 says, "...the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God."
Ezekiel saw the four terrestrial planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars, as
lively globes flying in concentric circles around the Sun.
Eze 1:15 says, "Now as I beheld the living creatures (lively flying things),
behold one wheel (i.e., orbit) upon the EARTH by the living creatures, with
his four faces."
Eze 1:26-28 says, "And above the firmament (i.e., expanse of space) that was
over their heads (i.e., farther out in space than the four terrestrial
planets) was the likeness of a THRONE, as the appearance of a sapphire stone
(sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn,
and priya, dear): and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as
the appearance of a man (the God/man Jesus) above upon it. 27 And I saw as
the colour of amber (Saturn is amber), as the appearance of fire round about
within it (i.e., it looks like the 7th lighted lamp on the lampstand in the
night sky), from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward,
and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw
as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (i.e., Saturn's
rings) round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in
the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This
was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD."
Heaven has a halo.
> "What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!" John
> 6:62.
Jesus ascended "to where he was before", on Saturn.
> "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven
> and he sat at the right hand of God." Mark 16:19.
> How can it be any clearer? The incarnate Jesus Christ was not in two
> places at one time. You have to leave a place before you can return to
> it. And please note that it was after the Ascension that Jesus sat at
> the right hand of God.
> Marilyn, please look at Mark 16:19 again: “So then after the Lord had
> spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right
> hand of God (KJV).”
That is right. The word "ek" is a primary preposition denoting origin.
Jesus sat "on" the right hand of God, not "at the right hand of God." There
is one throne. It is the throne of God and the Lamb.
Rev_17:14 says, "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall
overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are
with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
Jesus is presented in Isa. 53 as the "arm of the Lord."
Isa 53:1-5 says, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the ARM OF
THE LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and
as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we
shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is
despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed
him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we
did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was
wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the
chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
> How can it be any clearer? The incarnate Jesus Christ was not in two
> places at one time.
Actually, as God, he was in all places at one time. As man, he was in one
place at one time.
As a visible man, Jesus had to ascend out of man's sight before he could
descend 10 days later and enter into each believer on Pentecost.
Heb_13:5 says, "he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
Mat_28:19 says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name (i.e., singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost".
God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
> You said: “It says, ‘no man’. It doesn’t say Jesus. The Lord Jesus
> Christ is not just a man. He is both man and God. He is like no
> other.”
Joh_1:32 says, "And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending
from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him."
> I am sorry, Marilyn, but you are making a pretty straightforward
> proposition into a very convoluted one.
I have to tell it like it is. Col_2:9 says, "For in him dwelleth all the
fulness of the Godhead bodily."
2Co_5:19 says, "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto
himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us
the word of reconciliation."
> We know that there was a point in Revelation 5 where no man was found
> worthy to open the scroll in heaven, on earth, or under the earth.
> Then, all of a sudden, Jesus appears on the scene and He is deemed to be
> worthy to open the scroll. My proposition is that He was actually not
> in heaven, on earth, or under the earth at the time it was stated that
> no man was found worthy in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. I
> propose that the Ascension is the simple explanation for this absence.
> You, on the other hand, propose that Jesus was never absent from heaven.
> That He was not included in the search for a worthy man because He was a
> “God/man.” And that He was already seated on the throne and handed
> Himself – some projected image of a lamb – the scroll.
Yes, Jesus/God was seated on his throne on Saturn. How do I know that? I had
to pay close attention to the symbols in Rev. 4:1-3.
Rev 4:1-3 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in
heaven (i.e., on Saturn): and the first voice which I heard was as it were
of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (i.e., at the
First-Trump Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2
And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne
was set in heaven (i.e., as in Eze 1:26-28), and ONE (the God/Man Jesus) sat
on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (the last
stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (the first stone in the
breastplate): and there was a rainbow (i.e., Saturn's rings) round about the
throne, in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate,
i.e., Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah)."
In Rev 1:8, Jesus announced that he is both the first (YHWH of the Old
Testament) and the last (YHWH/Jesus of the New Testament). He said, "I am
Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and
which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
In Rev 22:13, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end,
the first and the last."
In Isa 44:6-8, the Lord said, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of
Israel, and his REDEEMER the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH King
of Israel), and I am the last (YHWH Jesus, the REDEEMER); and beside me
there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set
it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things
that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not,
neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared
it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A GOD BESIDE ME? YEA, THERE IS NO
GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY."
Isa 48:16-18 says, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in
secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now
the Lord GOD (i.e., the Father), and his Spirit (i.e., the Holy Spirit),
hath sent me (i.e., the Son of God). 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy REDEEMER,
the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit,
which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 says, "O that thou
hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and
thy righteousness as the waves of the sea".
The Son of God ("the God of Israel") sat on the throne on the sapphire
pavement on top of Mt. Sinai just as he sat on the "sapphire" throne on
Saturn in Ezekiel's visions.
Exo_24:10 says, "And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his
feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were (i.e., as
if it were) the body of heaven in his clearness."
The blue sapphire is Jesus' September birthstone, and as a birthstone, it
means heaven yet today.
Eze 10:1 says, "Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above
the head of the cherubims (i.e., Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars) there
appeared over them as it were a SAPPHIRE STONE, AS THE APPEARANCE OF THE
LIKENESS OF A THRONE."
> "But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins,
> he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his
> enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made
> perfect forever those who are being made holy" Hebrews 10:12-13. (Here
> is Jesus the High Priest sitting down at the right hand of God AFTER He
> offered one sacrifice for sins.)
Heb 10:12 (KJV) says, "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for
sins for ever, sat down ON the right hand of God".
Act 7:55,56 (KJV) says, "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up
stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing ON the
right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the
Son of man standing ON the right hand of God."
May the Lord bless you as you "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a
workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"
(2Ti_2:15).
Agape,
Marilyn Agee
mjagee@verizon.net
prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com
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Lisa Taylor (22 Nov 2013)
"To Marilyn re: Jesus the Man"
Hi Marilyn,
I wholeheartedly believe in the Trinity. HOWEVER, not all 3
persons of the Trinity became incarnate. This is key. It does not matter
where Jesus Christ may or may not have been sitting prior to His
incarnation. Our discussion must start at the Incarnation – an event that
took place at a specific point in time and space.
Jesus the Man
Scripture clearly refers to Jesus Christ as a man.
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through
the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by
grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." Romans
5:15.
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the
man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5.
Jesus also referred to Himself as the Son of Man on several
occasions.
Jesus humbled Himself through the Incarnation
Yes, Jesus is Deity, but He purposely limited Himself through the
Incarnation. Imagine the God of the Universe confining Himself to a womb
and to a body that would suffer unaccountable indignities.
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who,
being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But
made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and
was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he
humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the
cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name
which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And
that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of
God the Father.” Philippians 2:5-11.
Jesus returned to the Father at the Ascension
Scripture clearly tells us that when Jesus was on earth, He was
not in heaven:
"I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving
the world and going back to the Father." John 16:28.
"Jesus said, 'I am with you for only a short time, and then I go
to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not fine me; and
where I am, you cannot come.’” John 7:33-34.
"Jesus said to her, 'Mary.' She turned toward him and cried out
in Aramaic, 'Rabboni!' (which means Teacher). Jesus said, 'Do not hold on
to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers
and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and
your God.'" John 20:16-17.
"This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will
come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.'" Acts 1:3-11.
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from
heaven – the Son of Man." John 3:13.
"What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!"
John 6:62.
"After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into
heaven and he sat at the right hand of God." Mark 16:19.
How can it be any clearer? The incarnate Jesus Christ was not in
two places at one time. You have to leave a place before you can return to
it. And please note that it was after the Ascension that Jesus sat at the
right hand of God.
Marilyn, please look at Mark 16:19 again: “So then after the Lord
had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right
hand of God (KJV).”
Jesus had to physically return to heaven before He could sit down
at the right hand of God.
Search for a man
In Revelation 5, the search was for a worthy man – plain and
simple as that. They were not looking for candidates from the angel-pool or
even from the personage sitting on the throne. They were looking for a man.
“And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is
worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in
heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book,
neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy
to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.” Revelation 5:2-5.
Jesus fit that bill because He was a man. And it is only through
His humanity that He was deemed worthy to open the scroll – through His
death and shedding of blood.
“Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every
kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.” Revelation 5:9.
You said: “It says, ‘no man’. It doesn’t say Jesus. The Lord
Jesus Christ is not just a man. He is both man and God. He is like no
other.”
I am sorry, Marilyn, but you are making a pretty straightforward
proposition into a very convoluted one. We know that there was a point in
Revelation 5 where no man was found worthy to open the scroll in heaven, on
earth, or under the earth. Then, all of a sudden, Jesus appears on the
scene and He is deemed to be worthy to open the scroll. My proposition is
that He was actually not in heaven, on earth, or under the earth at the time
it was stated that no man was found worthy in heaven, on earth, or under the
earth. I propose that the Ascension is the simple explanation for this
absence.
You, on the other hand, propose that Jesus was never absent from
heaven. That He was not included in the search for a worthy man because He
was a “God/man.” And that He was already seated on the throne and handed
Himself – some projected image of a lamb – the scroll.
I agree that symbolic language is used to describe Christ. John
the Baptist referred to Him as the Lamb of God in John 1:29. So, I agree
that the identity of the Lamb in Revelation is Jesus Christ. But I believe
that the Lamb in Revelation is actually Jesus Christ – not just some
embodiment of a symbol.
Significantly, the slain lamb emphasizes Christ’s humanity – not
His deity. It points to Jesus the man.
Jesus is not the Father and vice versa
Don’t worry; I am not going to present a theological argument on
the Trinity. But Scripture does distinguish each person of the Godhead.
They have separate, but unified, roles. Please look at the following
verses, which highlight these separate roles during the time of the
Ascension of Christ:
"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me,
'Where are you going? Because I have said these things, you are filled with
grief. But I tell you the truth. It is for your good that I am going away.
Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will
send him to you." John 16:5-7. (Here Jesus promises to send down the Holy
Spirit after His Ascension. Note – two different locations for Jesus and
the Holy Spirit.)
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the
Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify
about me." John 15:26. (Here is the Trinity in one verse.)
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of
the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father
the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. For
David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, 'The Lord said to my Lord:
Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'"
Acts 2:32-36. (Here is the Trinity again and the Father telling the Son to
sit.)
"The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead – whom you had
killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as
Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to
Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom
God has given to those who obey him." Acts 5:30-32. (Here is the Trinity
again and God exalting Jesus to his right hand.)
"But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for
sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for
his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made
perfect forever those who are being made holy" Hebrews 10:12-13. (Here is
Jesus the High Priest sitting down at the right hand of God AFTER He offered
one sacrifice for sins.)
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact
representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand
of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:3. (Here the Son sits down AFTER He
provides purification for sins.)
"But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw
the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 'Look,' he
said, 'I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of
God.'" Acts 7:55-56. (Here is the Trinity again and Jesus standing – not
sitting.)
There is no justification for blurring the Son into the Father.
Jesus Christ was not the one sitting on the throne. He did not tell Himself
to sit down at his own right hand. Jesus is not the Father and the Father
is not the Son.
Conclusion
With regard to the rest of your post, I don’t think that it would
be fruitful for us to debate over our different interpretations on the
timing of the Tribulation in the book of Revelation. Because that it what
it boils down to – different interpretations. I hope we can agree to
disagree. It was good to sharpen swords with you. God bless you.
– Lisa Taylor