From: Marilyn Agee
Hi:
> I have a bit of an unorthodox take on when the Tribulation/70th Week
> occurs in the book of Revelation. (And since I am the only one that I
> know that holds this position, it probably means that I am wrong I
> believe that Revelation is basically in chronological order, and I think
> that everything that precedes Revelation 11 is pre-tribulation.
That is unorthodox.
I think opening the seals 1-6 in Rev 6 takes us from the beginning of the
Tribulation to the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the Great Tribulation.
How do you interpret Rev 6:1 and 17?
Rev 6:1 says, "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard,
as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and
see.
Rev 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be
able to stand?"
The Day of God's Wrath "is come" in Rev. 6:17. That is the end of the
Tribulation. So where do you place Rev. 7 - 10?
Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence
in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels
which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
The angels are not given the 7 trumpets until the Day of God's Wrath has
begun at the end of the Great Tribulation. Rev. 8 can't be Pre-Trib.
Rev 9:1 says, "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from
heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."
This happens at the end of the Tribulation, not the beginning.
Rev 10:7 says, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he
shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath
declared to his servants the prophets."
The Tribulation can't be over before it begins.
> I think that everything that precedes Revelation 11 is pre-tribulation.
Rev 10:7 says, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he
shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished".
How could the mystery of God be finished before the Tribulation begins?
> I personally think that the Seal Judgments are already in progress.
> Clearly, the Sixth Seal has not been opened yet because there has not
> been a worldwide earthquake; but I think an argument can be made for the
> opening of the previous seals. For example, before the First Seal is
> opened there is an unsuccessful search for the Lamb.
John was told how The Revelation of Jesus Christ was to be organized.
Rev 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the
Rapture), and the things which are (at the time of the Rapture), and the
things which shall be HEREAFTER" (after the Rapture).
Rev 4:1-4 mentions "HEREAFTER." It says, "After this I looked, and, behold,
a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it
were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will
shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER. 2 And immediately I was (lit.,
became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one
(i.e., Jesus/God) sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon
like a jasper (last stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (first
stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus/God is both the first and the Last):
and there was a RAINBOW (i.e., Saturn's ring system) round about the throne
(the throne of the only man/God is on Saturn (Eze 1:1, 26-28), in sight like
unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion
of the tribe of Judah). 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty
seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in
white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."
Saturn's rainbow rings are mentioned in both Eze 1 and Rev. 4:3.
Eze 1:1 says, "the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God."
Eze 1:26-28 says, "And above the firmament (i.e., the expanse of space) that
was over their heads (farther out in space than the four terrestrial planets
(i.e., Earth was one, v. 15) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance
of a sapphire stone (sapphire, Sept. birthstone means heaven, and the word
sapphire means Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani [Saturn] and priya, [dear]):
and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a
man (i.e., the man/God Jesus) above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of
amber (Saturn is amber), as the appearance of fire round about within it,
from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from
the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it
were the appearance of fire, and it had BRIGHTNESS (i.e., Saturn's rings)
round about. 28 AS THE APPEARANCE OF THE BOW THAT IS IN THE CLOUD IN THE
DAY OF RAIN, SO WAS THE APPEARANCE OF THE BRIGHTNESS ROUND ABOUT. This was
the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD."
2Co_5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself".
Jesus/God was the one sitting on the throne in Eze 1:26 and in Rev. 4:2.
That is why the Lamb was used to represent Jesus taking the little book in
Rev 5:5-9.
> "Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll
> with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a
> mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the
> seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven or on earth or under
> the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it." Revelation
> 5:1-3.
> But why will there be an unsuccessful search for the Lamb (i.e. Jesus
> Christ) when Scripture expressly tells us where He can now be located?
> He is at the right hand of the Father. See Acts 2:33 and 7:56; and
> Hebrews 10:12. And the scroll is being held in God's right hand. So
> why isn't Jesus already there to take it?
He is there. Jesus, both man and God, is sitting on the throne of God.
Therefore, the Lord used the symbol of the Lamb of God to picture Jesus
taking the little book out of his own hand.
Rev 5:5-9 says, "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the
Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the
book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the
midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders,
stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which
are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came
and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders
fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials
full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new
song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals
thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out
of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".
> Furthermore, Matthew 24:4-14 outlines the signs of the end of the age
> in such a way that it tracks what would be happening on earth if Seals 1
> through 5 were already opened. It may be possible, then, that the
> effects of these seals have been accelerating – like birth pains – since
> the Ascension of Christ.
Rev 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., things John saw
in the PREVIEW, when he was caught up to Heaven in the first Rapture, Rev.
5:9f), and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter".
Rev 1:9-19 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in
tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the
isle that is called Patmos (meaning mortal), for the word of God, and for
the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the
Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying,
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in
a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus,
and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and
unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that
spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in
the midst of the seven candlesticks (i.e., the 7 churches) one like unto the
Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps
with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as
white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like
unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound
of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun
shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first
and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive
for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the
things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which
shall be hereafter".
> There is no express verse that states that the Tribulation starts with
> the opening of the First Seal.
The 7 seals equal the Tribulation. It starts with the first seal and ends
with the 7th seal.
> I believe that the Sixth Seal is the time of the Rapture. (David Lowe’s
> Earthquake Resurrection plays a big part in this belief.) Because I do
> not believe that the Tribulation has started at that time, however, a
> Sixth Seal Rapture is still a Pre-Trib Rapture for me.
I believe that the First-Trump Rapture precedes the opening of the first
seal, and that the Last-Trump Rapture precedes the opening of the 7th seal.
Rev 7:9 says, "After this (i.e., after the sixth seal is broken and the
beginning of the Day of God's Wrath has begun [Rev. 6:12,17]). I beheld,
and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and
kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the
Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".
Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence
in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels
which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
"Charles, ironically, my Sixth Seal Rapture matches the placement of your
Pre-Wrath-Rapture. We differ, however, as to the timing of the Tribulation.
(And note that it is unbelievers who are declaring it to be the day of wrath
in Revelation 6:17. I am not sure if you can absolutely rely upon the
statements of these unbelievers to prove your case."
2Ti_3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness".
Rev 6:12 says, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became as blood".
Rev 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be
able to stand?
Rev 7:9 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no
man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,
stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and
palms in their hands".
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These
are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
This is the Last-Trump Rapture.
FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE
1Th 4:13-18 says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which
have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say
unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto
the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (phthano, precede) them which are
asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and
so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with
these words."
LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE
1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at
the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this
corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory."
In the First-Trump Rapture, none are made immortal. At the Last-Trump
Rapture, all are made immortal, you, me, even Paul.
Agape,
Marilyn Agee
mjagee@verizon.net
prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com
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Lisa Taylor (9 Nov 2013)
"To Shan, Marilyn, and Charles"
Dear Shan, thank you very much for the encouragement and feedback. It is
much appreciated.
Dear Marilyn and Charles,
Thank you for your comments. I have a bit of an unorthodox take
on when the Tribulation/70th Week occurs in the book of Revelation. (And
since I am the only one that I know that holds this position, it probably
means that I am wrong
I believe that Revelation is basically in
chronological order, and I think that everything that precedes Revelation 11
is pre-tribulation.
Since NONE of these increments of time are mentioned prior to
Revelation 11, the absence can support the position that the Tribulation
does not start until Chapter 11.
I personally think that the Seal Judgments are already in
progress. Clearly, the Sixth Seal has not been opened yet because there has
not been a worldwide earthquake; but I think an argument can be made for the
opening of the previous seals. For example, before the First Seal is opened
there is an unsuccessful search for the Lamb.
“Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a
scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a
mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals
and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth
could open the scroll or even look inside it.” Revelation 5:1-3.
But why will there be an unsuccessful search for the Lamb (i.e.
Jesus Christ) when Scripture expressly tells us where He can now be located?
He is at the right hand of the Father. See Acts 2:33 and 7:56; and Hebrews
10:12. And the scroll is being held in God’s right hand. So why isn’t
Jesus already there to take it?
There is only one applicable time when Christ was not in heaven or
on earth or under the earth – and that is during His Ascension. He even
looks like He has recently been slain when He makes His initial appearance
in the scene.
“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in
the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the
elders.” Revelation 5:6.
I do not think that it is farfetched to believe that we are
looking into the past here – at Christ’s arrival to Heaven after the
crucifixion.
Furthermore, Matthew 24:4-14 outlines the signs of the end of the
age in such a way that it tracks what would be happening on earth if Seals 1
through 5 were already opened. It may be possible, then, that the effects
of these seals have been accelerating – like birth pains – since the
Ascension of Christ.
I believe that the Sixth Seal is the time of the Rapture. (David
Lowe’s Earthquake Resurrection plays a big part in this belief.) Because I
do not believe that the Tribulation has started at that time, however, a
Sixth Seal Rapture is still a Pre-Trib Rapture for me.
I know that the great majority believe that the Antichrist is the
rider on the white horse, but I disagree. It is not until Revelation 11:7
that we see the Antichrist clearly introduced as the Beast and consistently
called the Beast from that point on in Revelation. My chronological take on
the book gives me the conclusion that the Beast is not revealed as the Beast
until the events of Revelation 11.
Furthermore, I think that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are
all spirit beings. This is because we see them hundreds of years earlier in
Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8.
I realize that there are a lot of things that happen prior to
Revelation 11, but I see no reason why they cannot precede the Tribulation.
There is no express verse that states that the Tribulation starts with the
opening of the First Seal. I can only reiterate that the increments of
Daniel’s Seventieth Week do not show up until Revelation 11. I think that
means something.
Marilyn, my main issue with the partial-Rapture theory is that I
do not see support for it in Biblical models or patterns. For example, Noah
does not swing back for any survivors before the Flood really gets going, no
one else is saved from Sodom and Gomorrah once judgment starts, the 5
unprepared virgins are not granted access to the wedding after they get more
oil, etc. I do believe in other resurrection events, however – like the 2
Witnesses and the 144,000 Jews. But I limit the Rapture (maybe we differ in
semantics?) to the Church and I think that its membership roll is closed
(i.e. the fullness of the Gentiles is reached) at that time.
Charles, ironically, my Sixth Seal Rapture matches the placement
of your Pre-Wrath-Rapture. We differ, however, as to the timing of the
Tribulation. (And note that it is unbelievers who are declaring it to be
the day of wrath in Revelation 6:17. I am not sure if you can absolutely
rely upon the statements of these unbelievers to prove your case. For me,
the events of the Sixth Seal are the consequence of the energy that will be
released by the simultaneous resurrection of thousands and thousands. For
those still on earth, however, it will undoubtedly feel like God’s wrath.)
I don’t expect to convince you of my position. It took me many years to
reach it myself; but I am convinced that there is support for it. I think
that we will just have to wait and see who is right. And that’s cool.
God bless you all in your studies.
– Lisa Taylor