Hi Marilyn,
Thanks again for your comments. I will only address some of your
major points:
1. Timing of the Seals:
I really think that the search for Jesus Christ in Revelation 5:3 tells
us that He was literally not in heaven or on earth or under the earth.
But you say: “He is there. Jesus, both man and God, is sitting on the
throne of God. Therefore, the Lord used the symbol of the Lamb of God
to picture Jesus taking the little book out of his own hand.”
That is an assumption, and a pretty big one considering that Scripture
expressly tells us that Jesus could not be found in heaven. And don’t
you think that John, his own disciple, would have recognized Him sitting
there, instead of weeping so much in Revelation 5:4?
I see no reason why Revelation 5:3 should not be taken literally. If
it says that Jesus was not at 3 specific locations, then He was not at
those locations. We know that the scene takes place after the
crucifixion (because He appears as a slain Lamb), but it must also take
place before He is placed at the right hand of God (or He could have
been found). I do not know what else fits but the Ascension. That is
also why I believe that we are given a glimpse of the past here – and
not the start of the Tribulation.
This is not the first time that we are given a glimpse of Christ’s
return to heaven. Take a look at Zechariah 3 where Joshua the high
priest is standing before God with Satan accusing him. He is given new
clothes to wear. And we are told: “Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.” Zechariah 3:8. So, I have no problem with the idea that God could again show us what happened to Christ after the Ascension.
Jesus was not always at the right hand of God; He was on earth during
His ministry and under the earth during the time of His death (See
Matthew 12:40; Ephesians 4:8-9; and 1 Peter 3:18-22.). Jesus was
exalted to the position at the right hand of God after His
resurrection. (It seems like you are trying to blur Jesus into the
being that is already sitting on the throne. Scripture clearly refers
to them as two separate beings. I am sorry but it is a little odd to
have Jesus hand Himself the scroll.)
“God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and here. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’” Acts 2: 32-35.
How can you command someone to sit if they are already sitting?
“But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits
for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he
has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Hebrews
12-14.
These verses clearly show us that He was seated at the right hand of
God AFTER His death and resurrection, and that He is there today.
2. Wrath of the Lamb:
I stated to Charles that the speakers of Revelation 6:16 are
unbelievers. And no, I would not base a major eschatological point on
the statement of an unbeliever. These are the same folks who will say
“Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?” in Revelation
13:4. Is that belief true just because it is in the Bible? Or is it
merely reciting what these people are going to say at that time. Yes,
Scripture is inspired. But if a statement is not clearly attributed to
God, I think we should look at the speaker and context of a passage, and
see how it lines up with the rest of Scripture, before we claim it as
doctrine.
Here, in Revelation 11:17-18, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet,
you will see the starting point of the wrath of God. (Note that the
trumpets are sounded after the breaking of the seals.) The 24 Elders are the speakers: “We
give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The
nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come
for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and
your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great –
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
Please note that the Seventh Trumpet is sounded immediately after the
1260 day ministry of the Two Witnesses plus 3 ½ days. (See Revelation
11:11-18.) Therefore, we are at the mid-point of the Tribulation here.
Also, in Revelation 14:6-7 we find the following: “Then
I saw another angel flying in mid air, and he had the eternal gospel to
proclaim to those who live on the earth – to every nation, tribe,
language and people. He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him
glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.” (Clearly, God’s judgment starts here!)
You say: “The angels are not given the 7 trumpets until the Day of
God’s Wrath has begun at the end of the Great Tribulation.” BUT only
the subsequent bowl judgments are called the “seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” Revelation 16:1.
Why are not the seals and trumpets called the seals and trumpets of
God’s wrath? Because there is a clear cut demarcation that does not
occur until the mid-point of the Tribulation. (And please remember that
the Seventh Trumpet is blown right after the 1260 day ministry of the 2
Witnesses – so the Seals and Trumpets are restricted to the first half
of the Tribulation.)
No offense, but I will trust words the 24 Elders and an angel of God
over the unsaved hiding in caves. The day of God’s wrath comes after the Seventh Trumpet.
3. Assumptions:
I reiterate that there is no express verse that states that the
Tribulation starts with the opening of the First Seal. You must concede
that much. We both have to make assumptions and I admit mine are
unorthodox. For me, however, the absence of the increments of time
that coincide with Daniel’s Seventieth Week, prior to Revelation 11, is
significant. God could have easily made mention of them earlier – but
He did not. So, I base the start of the Tribulation at the point where
these increments of time are mentioned.
There are other significant things that are not mentioned prior to
Revelation 11 – for example, the 2 Witnesses, the Temple, the Beast and
the False Prophet, the Abomination that Causes Desolation. For that
reason, I also believe that none of those things occur or are present in
the previous chapters.
For me, Revelation 11 is a major milestone in the prophetic timeline of
the book of Revelation.
4. Opening of the Seals: I no longer feel bound to start the Tribulation with the opening of the First Seal. Matthew 24:8 tells us that bad things can and will happen prior to the actual Tribulation:
“All these are the beginning of birth pains.” Since the things that
Jesus describes in Matthew 24:4-14 do match up with Seals 1-5, why can’t
they be related? Like labor pains, they could be accelerating
throughout the Church Age.
5. Great tribulation of Revelation 7:14:
You must already know that there are many opinions as to the
interpretation of this passage. Is the great multitude the Church or
Tribulation Saints? Is this tribulation in general or the last 3 ½
years of the Tribulation – often called the Great Tribulation?
I can only tell you what I believe and it is obviously colored by my
view on Revelation. I believe in a Sixth Seal Rapture, and because the
great multitude shows up right after it is opened, I believe that the
multitude is the Church. I believe that “they which came out of great
tribulation” refers to either the immediate travail of the Sixth Seal or
the future (Revelation 11) Tribulation. It works either way for me.
6. Mystery of God in Rev. 10:7:
You said: “How can the mystery of God be finished before the
Tribulation begins? According to Scripture, the mystery is finished at the mid-point
of the Tribulation. Trumpets 1-6 have been sounded at this point in
the Bible. And Revelation 11 tells us that the Seventh Trumpet will be
sounded immediately after the 1260 day ministry of the 2 Witnesses – which is the mid-point of the Tribulation.
“But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” Revelation 10:7.
AND something significant does happen at the blowing of this
trumpet:
“The
kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his
Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.” Revelation 11:15.
So you will have to ask God Himself why this mystery is accomplished
BEFORE the 7 Bowl Judgments, the fall of Babylon, the Battle of
Armageddon, the end of the Tribulation, AND the Second Coming. I can
only tell you that Scripture clearly shows that it will happen prior to all of these things.
7. First and Last Trump Raptures:
Look, this is clearly a theory that you are married to, and it is
hardly one of those things worth debating between Christians. I know
that you have taken years to formulate your position and it is the same
for me. As I said in my previous post, I am the only one that I know
who takes a chronological and literal view of Revelation to the extent
that I do. Time will tell for both of our theories. And I doubt that
either of us will be 100% correct :)
God bless you.
– Lisa Taylor