I need to make another update to what I said before about Irenaeus and the rapture.  I finally found the ACTUAL quote of what Irenaeus said that the quote attributed to him was based on.  When I found it, it all made sense why I couldn't find it before.

The quote attributed to him was, "when the end is suddenly here, the Church will be taken away" but I could not find that in his writings anywhere.  I had also read Irenaeus sevral times, and never saw anything in his writings that advocated a pre trib rapture.

The only thing I could find with this wording was an article ABOUT his writings.  I assumed it was correct, and posted from that quote the first time.  Later, when I found the Latin text in a commentary from a much later time period, I concluded the article must have gotten it from that footnote instead of from Irenaeus. 

Then I finally found what Irenaeus said, and it all made sense.  I had read that passage before and never seen "pre-trib" rapture in it.  The quote we discussed the last few weeks CHANGED THE WORDING from the traditional English translation of his writings, and that's why my word search on the e-text came up empty.

CCEL lists what I think is probably Lightfoot's translation if I remember right, as this...

"Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven... [are] as nothing; " so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

Now I had read this several times and never saw "pre-trib" in this.  He is talking about the "end" when the wheat is separated from the chaff at the harvest, which is discussed in Revelation 19 as the beast is about to be destroyed, not as it rises to power before the trib.  and there's no doubt that Armageddon will be the ultimate in tribulation upon the unrighteouss, but different from the tribulation the false messiah will heap upon the righteouss.  The context is Armegeddon, not the pre-trib revealing of the false messiah.

But this is getting quoted by pre-tribbers like this....

"when the end is suddenly here, the Church will be taken away"

changing the wording, and making a e-search on the text not find it.  Note the changes....

• "caught up" was changed to "taken away".  "taken" is actually a more literal translation of the Latin "assumetur".  So nothing wrong with that.
• One text says the end will come suddenly, while the other calls the "taken away" a sudden thing.
  

Irregardless of which wording you like better for this phrase, the context to the phrase remains the same; the end times harvest that occurs in Revelation 19 just before Armegeddon, so that believers are PART of the army and not killed by it.

Now I could only find the Englsh quote in articles ABOUT Irenaeus and not in Irenaeus's writings because they changed the wording.  My memory told me Irenaeus never said anything advocating pre-trib because I had read his writings numerous times.  So when I couldn't find it in the English, I did an e-search on the Latin, and found it in the footnote of a commentary and figured that must be where it came from.  I should have kept searching, but anyway, you really don't have to go back to the original Latin on this one, just keep the entire CONTEXT in mind, because that is more where the problem lies than anywhere.

Shalom,

Joe