TO STEVE B. / TWO WITNESSES AND MORE
(RE: Steve B (28 Apr 2012)
"To Patti C., An Apology")
Hi Steve!!
No Problem about being in a bad place when you wrote to me, I totally understand!! My life has been very hectic, and although I would like to spend all my time in Bible study, reading letters and responding, I just cannot keep up!! I have been a day behind in my responses to everyone for a few weeks, and I would rather be right on it, but that is not always possible.
I want to thank you again for all the information you sent, what a brilliant commentary on the whole of the Tribulation period. I don’t know if I understood it all, and there are some areas that were over my head. I will cover more about the conclusions that I have come to, and how many do not line up with yours. That is totally ok with me, as we all have our personal conclusions, and our own little puzzles we are working out. It is awesome to be given so much information to work with in these end-times as understanding knowledge is increasing.The few things that I did not see the same way are;
The length of the Tribulation period, although I found your take on it very intriguing, and have some thoughts formulating about the last decade, I just don’t see how that all works out.I, also, do not see it the same way you do about the seals being opened during the Tribulation, I feel that the first 4 seals are already open. We are waiting for the 5th when the dead in Christ rise first and then Rapture and the 6th seal happen at the same time.
And, I do not see the two beasts in the same way. I think they will rule during the same time period. They will be on the scene for the whole of the 7 years, but only have power when indwelt by Satan…at the same time period of 3.5 years. If I misunderstood this, forgive me.
Here is how I see it. We do agree about some things. I am in no way saying that I am right and you are wrong or anything even close to that, I just want you to know where I am coming from.#######
I do agree that the first seal is Christ sending the Holy Spirit and not the Anti-Christ, coming on the scene. The spirit of the Anti-Christ is not sent by Christ, as that is the natural condition of man, unless he has the Holy Spirit!!! No need to send that or him!! The first 4 seals are the birth pangs that occur during the Church Age, as to what we are to watch for during the 2000 years between Christ’s death, and ascension, and until the Rapture.
I believe the seals are opened as soon as Christ gets to heaven, and that John is witnessing heaven before Christ is crucified and Ascended. As soon as Christ ascended to the right hand of His Father, he started to open the seals. (The Pre-Church saints that He took with Him at His ascension are the ones mentioned in Rev. 5:9, and they will rule with Him on the earth). The first seal does represent the Holy Spirit, as it was sent to His disciples on the first Pentecost, and then to all, down through history, who are born again. This is a good reason to look at Ascension Day as the time of Rapture, because on Pentecost the 144,000 would be sealed, 10 days later.
The Second through Fourth seals have been opened throughout history. Rapture happens right after the opening of the Fifth seal, where the dead rise first and are given white robes, immortal bodies and then, right before the 6th seal opens, and The Day of the Lord begins, those who are alive are raptured to meet the resurrected dead in the air.
The earthquakes that happen at that time are caused by the rising of millions of dead, coming out of the earth. Please note, that when the Two Witnesses are resurrected, there is also an earthquake, that takes out a third of the city of Jerusalem…this is only two people being rapture causing all that damage, imagine millions!!!
I do not see the Anti-Christ and False Prophet ruling in two different time periods…that makes no sense to me, and just do not see that at all in Scripture. I believe they come on the scene at the same time. They both play into the peace and safety that is established in the aftermath of the sudden destruction rapture…which could easily come at the same time as all the destruction about to happen on Dec.21st 2012. (I am doing a study on the Rapture happening about ten days before this destruction on the fourth day of Chanukah this year, December 12/12/12). But, Ascension Day is still the best day to see all this happening at the right time, and the ten days before the sealing of the 144,000. I hope we will not have to wait until December, but if we do, it also appears to be a good time to see it occurring.
I still see the Two Witnesses witnessing during the first half of a 7 year Tribulation. They come on the scene while the Temple is being rebuilt and will be warning the Jewish people during a time when they will be really upset by their testimony, because they believe that the peaceful Anti-Christ is the Messiah.
I also feel that this is the strong delusion that the Lord will send, that delusion being that the False Messiah is Christ!! If the Jews believe this strong delusion they certainly will not want to hear what these Two Witnesses have to say. The ones, who do believe these Two Witnesses, will begin to flee into the wilderness. Why else would the earth celebrate their deaths??
I am in good company of seeing the timing in this way. Tim LaHaye, Charles Swindol, and Peter Goodgame all agree on this time period, and that is just a few of the Bible scholars that come to the same conclusion on this point. I am not saying that they see everything the same way I do, just the timing part of the Two Witnesses.
I know this may all seem too simple minded, but after much research, these are my findings. I have spent so many years putting these pieces together. My MA degree is in Theology, with an emphasis on Eschatology, so even though I may be presenting my position in a very simple shorthand kind of style; please know that countless hours of serious study has gone into my conclusions.
I also depend most heavily on the Holy Spirit to show me what is true, and I find much peace from a simple understanding of the Lord’s Word…if a child cannot understand it, then most likely it is too complicated and there is a simple answer that is being overlooked.
I also believe that the Two Witnesses are most likely John the Apostle and Daniel. I know that is not a popular view and I may be totally off base, here. But, neither of them finished revealing the knowledge they were shown about the end-times, and only they know the whole story. They have seen what the mark of the beast is, have seen all the horrors of the seven trumpets, bowls and vials , the whole story of what is about to happen, and can tell the people about them. They are the two whom have already witnessed the whole Tribulation. This also means they would warn about these things happening before they do happen!! Why witness and warn about these things while they are happening??
I respect your research and you seem very comfortable with your findings and that is great. I just do not see it that way in most part. We do agree with some aspects, and that is good, but otherwise I feel comfortable with my findings. The Truth being, we will not know for sure, any of it, until it is happening!!
Thank you, again, for spending the time to share all that research with me…I appreciate it and forgive me for taking so much time going through it all, but I have been so busy with other studies, and all the stresses of daily work and living. House is being foreclosed on; need to move, and all that; not to mention illness and other, not so fun, stuff. I am daily in search of the flower, the lesson and the strength to stand firm and wait for my BELOVED KING to take me home!!
I hope other Doves read what you shared with me, and have time to respond with their opinions because yours is definitely an interesting and will researched study.
Many blessing to you Steve!
Your sister in Christ,
Patti C.#############Steve B (28 Apr 2012)
"To Patti C., An Apology"Patti, please accept my sincere apology. I sent that last letter (2 Witnesses, short version) in to you without really proof reading (I was tired). As I read over it after posting, I realized that I was attacking you or criticizing and needless to say, that was without merit. You have done nothing to deserve that. You are a sister in Christ, and a fellow watcher....and with it all due respect.No excuses for poor behavior, but I had a really long day and my computer was giving me fits crashing. Hopefully, I now have it fixed or least some better. I don't normally act (write) like that. I think I was just generally taking some frustrations out and it fell to you. I'm sorry.I do hope you got something out of the letter. I tried to get your answer nearer to the beginning. The way to pinpoint (or at least get close) to the time of the arrival of the 2 witnesses is to backtrack from their death....sometime during the second woe (6th trumpet)....during the reign of the Second Beast. These woes are said to come quickly, so there seems to be little time between them. The first woe is 5 months and the second woe last for one year, one month and one day. Backtracking, that puts their arrival between about 6 months and 18 months after the coming to power of the First Beast.Personally, I think we can apply a little reasoning and get even closer. We should be able to deduct that they arrive in the fall (late fall) about one year after the first beast comes to power. You will see what I am talking about if you sort through all the info below....grin. Truly, there is a seemingly a lot, but there is a simplicity to it....and it is all right on. I've studied for years and God has shown me a lot. There is nothing in prophetic scripture which stands in contradiction...all the pieces fit together, perfectly. Most people would say it is too perfect....and God is not that way. But, oh yea, He is....so perfect that he can state Ecclesiastes 1:9, then make it happen just that way.According to Revelations 2:10, the tribulation last about 10 years. The time of the Seals itself though is about 10.5 years (from the Rapture of the bride until Jesus' return with the saints)....but, Jesus and his angels defeat the foe prior to his return with his saints to set up his 1000 year kingdom government....maybe as much as 7 months prior. Like scripture says, Satan's days are cut short. The actual tribulation then is a little less than 10.5 years..closer to what Revelations 2:10 says....10 years. Yet, the time from the rapture to Jesus return with his saints is about 10.5 years.We divide the 10.5 years into 3 sections....time wise using the "times, time and half a time" formula (also called the "times, time and dividing of time" formula). Based on God's Sacred calendar of 12 each 30 day months (a 360 day year), this breaks down to 3.5 years, 42 months or 1260 days. (As for the difference with the solar and lunar calendars....well, lets just say, this is close enough for me.)As for breaking the Seals down, this involves the battle over right to rule...and the formula is the preeminent 4 in the figure of 7 (the design of creation week, the design of the Mennorah, and the design of the 7 candles before the throne). The 2 beasts (Death and Hell, i.e. the antichrist and false prophet), come to power at the end of the 4th Seal, following the 4th horse (Revelations 6:8). Take note the next 3 verses (9-11) describe the trials of the tribulation saints under the beast's rule. Together, both rule during the 5th, 6th and 7th Seals, (the 7th Seal being the 7 Trumpets).This mirrors Jesus' coming at the end of the 4th milleniel day, even dying on the cross at the end of the 4th day of the week. The second beast comes to power at the end of the 4th trumpet. He will rule the 5th, 6th and 7th Trumpets called the Woes. I will even go so far as to say that the 2 Witnesses die just like Jesus...at the end of the 4th day of the week....and arise on a Sunday (dead 3.5 days)....even a Pentecost Sunday (the Holy Spirit's grand finale, all first fruits are in heaven and time for the wedding supper).When we look at this....the white horse at the first seal is not the antichrist coming peaceably. First of all, everything in Revelations about Jesus and his government is described in the color white. Jesus rides a white horse, his government rest upon a white cloud, he conducts a white throne judgment, his saints wear white (also his angels) and he gives a white stone to each of his saints. Secondly, when Jesus opens the Seals....the first move is his, as is the last move. After all, it is in Revelations where he calls himself the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. It is applicable to the Seals as well as the larger meaning. The 1st Seal, the white horse, is his and the 7th trumpet, the 7 vials are his. In between is the work of Satan, albeit God lets him.This white horse is the Holy Spirit filled left behind tribulation saints....who prepare themselves and ask. This is an emphatic promise in Luke 11: 5-13 and was foreshadowed by Elisha who witnessed Elijah's translation and asked for a double portion of his spirit. After Elijah departed his mantle fell back and Elisha got his wish....a double portion. This one will be twice as powerful as the outpouring that the apostles and early believers received. For what they will face in the tribulation....they will need it.Just like the original outpouring on the apostles and early believers, this will occur 10 days after the ascension of the living bride, and on a Pentecost Sunday. The ascension of the living bride will be on a Thursday, at eventide (twilight after sunset). These Holy Spirit filled left behind will lead a worldwide revival....mostly during the time period of the 4 horses. That is why the tribulation saints are a multitude too great to number. This revival will wane when the first beast comes to power. Scripture does though say that angels preach...so there is a lot going on here.This revival is not the work of the 2 witnesses for they will not arrive until about 4.5 years after the rapture of the bride and one year after the first beast comes to power. They will likely come to the aid of the remaining trib saints, but mostly the witnesses will do battle with the 2 beasts as did Elijah with King Ahab and Jezebel. I do think they are much responsible for turning the 12 tribes sealed to Christ. My guess is these are primarily of the nation state man calls Israel (God calls Judah) and of the Jewish faith. Wouldn't want to limit God here though. I do know they are mortal, sealed and hidden and protected all way through the reign of the second beast. They will be the future mortal leaders of reconstituted Israel, who will be chief of nations. They will however, be underneath the global government of Jesus and his immortal saints.The 3.5 year sections of the Seals of Revelations are then: (1) the first 4 Seals, i.e. the 4 horses often called the apocalypse, (2) the rule of the first beast called Death, i.e. the antichrist, (3) the rule of the second beast called Hell, i.e. the Satan embodied false prophet (takes place after Satan is thrown from heaven).By now, you should be able to see that if the white horse is the Holy Spirit filled left behind tribulation saints...then the Seals of Revelations should open with the Holy Spirit outpouring 10 days after the ascension of the living bride. No wasted time here.If the rapture is in the spring (late spring) as scripture depicts.....then the first beast comes to power in the fall. Well, we know that when he does come to power that he confirms the covenant with many. To date, all conferences and agreements about these disputed lands of Israel have been conducted in the fall, the 2 most noteworthy being Oslo and Annapolis.A note: Isaiah 28: 14-18 tells us that Ephraim (the USA) is a power in making Israel submit to this false peace treaty...and that we will be downtrodden by it. Go back and read Moses' blessing upon Joseph. In Deuteronomy 33:17 we see that it is Ephraim and Manasseh who push the peoples of the world together, i.e. responsible for forcing a world government (as in the days of Babel). Yes, the birthright blessing was about the last days (Genesis 49:1)....and Joseph's descendents got it (1 Chronicles 5: 1-2). In Genesis 47, we see that the younger son (Ephraim) was to become greater in the last days than the elder (Manasseh). Ehpraim is the USA and the one who received the greater of the birthright blessing.The reason I am hitting on this world government theme is simple. Revelations 17: 12-17 tells us it is the 10 horns who form this world government and after it is set up, it is they who appoint the first beast called the antichrist over it. This world government must first be formed. Right now, the nations are not willing to give up their sovereignty which they have held since God confounded their tongues at Babel and sent the various families in their own directions and lands.The red (war), black (famine and rationing) and pale (pestilence and death) horses are the work of the 10 horns to get the nations so terrified they will give up their sovereignty to a world government. This will take a while after the rapture. Understand, these 10 horns, who sit atop the financial and commercial empire of the world.....control the elections and politicians of at least the free (western) world. In this world, money is real power.....and they control it....and they run world events from behind the scenes.If the first beast comes to power in the fall, then the second beast must come to power in the spring....these may be late springs and late falls. It then tells us that Jesus will return with his saints in the fall to establish his global government. My guess it will be at the Feast of Trumpets. Like I said earlier, Jesus will come with his angels to battle Satan and his worldly armies at Armageddon....some time before this, maybe as early as 7 months prior. Satan's rule is over at that point....and cut short, just like Jesus promises in Matthew 24.Now, I am convinced that the 2 Witnesses will be resurrected and ascend on a Pentecost Sunday....a late spring event. For this to be so, then they have to arrive in the late fall. This then would seemingly put their arrival about 1 year after the coming to power of the first beast.Currently, we are right on top of the rapture of the bride. I mentioned there are really 2 each 7 year periods of judgment. The first is the judgment upon Ephraim who received the birthright blessing and now whose leadership has fallen away from God and his commandments. In fact, they have fell in bed with darkness and in support of Satan's global kingdom. God always judges his own house first, then the nations of the world.The second judgement is upon the rest of the nations of the world and this judgment is the reign of the 2 beasts whom they embrace as the messiah. If you are seeing this clearly, then you should see that the second half of the 7 year judgment against Ephraim constitutes the opening of the Seals of Revelations and the 4 horses of the first 4 seals. The rapture of the bride will separate the 2 halves.A look at Ephraim and this 7 year curse of Leviticus 26:Joseph died at age 110....as did Joshua (an Ephraimite who led the children into the Promised Land. This is a foreshadow of Ephraim's leadership....which God has a strong issue with. It represents the 110th Congress....which ran concurrent with Bush # 2, Second term (a double bush sign). Both took place at the end of 400 years of the blessing which also ran concurrent with the 40th stripe of the Fig tree (the acquisition of the disputed territories by Israel in June 67). Joseph's death marks a spiritual death....departure from the blessing and the beginning of the 7 year curse of Leviticus 26 (the laws of blessing and cursing).This 7 year curse began then not later than the seating of President Obama and the 111th Congress. This late spring will mark the dividing of time point (3.5 years or midpoint of the 7). It is also the point of the fully complete 44th stripe of the sign of the fig tree. It is a convergence of signs in the 2 branches of Jacob's descendents.Also note, that if you can understand that Jesus died on a day 4 afternoon, then it was 44 days from there to ascension day (a day also when the living bride will ascend). This is inclusive counting just like from resurrection day to ascension day is said to be 40 days.The Secrets of wisdom are double to that which is. This double thing is a major sign in the house of Joseph and it has several applications, another of which is the double Passover (along with Feast of Unleavened bread).Now, Second Passover (Numbers 9) falls 30 days after First Passover. As well, it is specifically about the bride and groom. If First Passover falls on a Thursday (actually around midnight between Wednesday and Thursday), then Second Passover falls on a Sabbath day (actually around midnight between Friday and Saturday). Don't want to get too specific here because Jesus tells us it might be any watch hour. He also told us to watch each day....so there could be a surprise here.More importantly, the Feast of Weeks day count (counting the Omer) from Passover to Pentecost....and noting where Second Passover takes place in this count (exactly on the 4th Sabbath Omer......leaves exactly 14 days (inclusive count) from the midnight cry of Second Passover to ascension day....and exactly 10 more days to Pentecost.It sits in a perfect count of days to mirror the events of Hezekiah's Second Passover of 1 Chronicles 30. This 7 day feast (Second Passover followed by the 7 day Unleavened Bread) turns into a 14 day feast....with a remarkable ending. This sequence is the very same as the parable of the 10 virgins, except it gives us a day count between events. It also has the same characters....clean/unclean or sanctified/unsanctified vs wise and unwise. It also mentions that when the invitation went out, many in Ephraim and Manasseh laugh the messengers to scorn....but, nevertheless many show up.The rapture will not likely be just a sudden disappearance. 1 Thessalonians 4: 12-17 speaks of clouds plural, i.e they are 2, far enough apart in time to be seen as separate. These clouds are ascensions.....first the dead, then the living. These ascensions are seen. The dead are raised first and ascend because they are raised incorruptible (immortal). The living must first be changed. See 1 Corinthians 15: 50-53. It is this changing which happens in the twinkling of an eye. All ascensions are seen by many.The opening event will be the midnight cry, resurrection and ascension of the dead. It will be seen by many and it is this which alerts the virgins. It is followed by the 7 day Feast of Unleavened Bread, a period of spiritual cleansing and renewal, also praise and song. The changing takes place at the end of this Feast.....be sure to keep it,. The first and last days are also time periods of holy convocation and no work. The ascension of the living will be 7 days later (inclusive counting), but on a Thursday evening, at twilight after sunset (see Genesis 24:63). This leaves then 10 days to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the left behind (again, who prepare themselves and ask).So, in conclusion....look each day, but particularly on a Sabbath day (from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) on or near a full moon. 4-5 May is such a time. 1- 2 June or possibly 8-9 June is also. I'm not God, not even a prophet.....but, it would finally seem that we should begin to get prepared. This spring looks promising.Happy watching,Steve