re: Arlene, on Enoch and Elijah...or even Moses during the Tribulation..."

Arlene (23 March 2012)
"For John and all the Doves...on Enoch and Elijah...or even Moses during the Tribulation..."

"For all the wonderful Doves....There is much disagreement on the "two witnesses" in Rev. 11. Perhaps it might be best to just not even think of Enoch, Elijah and/or Moses... and just listen to what God has told us about who is on earth during the Tribulation.

One GROUP in Rev. 12:6 is taken care of by God and fed for 1260 days.....the "woman" whose "manchild" was "caught up" to God's throne BEFORE her 1260 days wilderness fleeing. I believe the "woman" is the Church, or "body of Christ." I also believe the "manchild" are those who are raptured before the 1260 day Tribulation begins (the 5 virgins in Matt.25). The fleeing "woman" symbolizes the church people who are left behind.....but they are still saved and are "spiritual I! srael."

The "pregnant" woman (obviously NOT a "virgin,") seems to be the whole "church" (Jew and Gentile) which has some false doctrine in it. The "manchild" is one part of it that has pure doctrine ("virgins" inside the "body"). These people who are the "manchild" will be taken out of the "body" at the time the 1260 days begin.

The 144,000 (which is a "12" number which is magnified) are also from ALL the Tribes of spiritual "Israel" (The Jews are still in unbelief here). They are protected by God (just as the woman is). The woman is "spiritual Israel," being the "body of Christ." And the 144,000 are also "Israel." If the 144,000 are "spiritual Israel," as well, then they are part of the SAME group. The 144,000 are called "virgins"(Rev.14:4)....as are the ! ones taken in Matt.25. "Virgins" here has nothing to do with sex....it has to do with being involved with false doctrine. These 144,000 are those who have learned true doctrine and will teach it during the Tribulation and witness to the whole world.

During the Tribulation, there are only 3 groups....Jews, Gentiles, and the saved (left-behind Laodicean church which include both Gentile and Jew, and the newly saved during the Tribulation). That's it! Except for Satan and his demonic hoard, there are just Jews, Gentiles, and the saved during this time. The two witnesses are throughout the whole world, and they are part of one of these groups.

God's direct quote in defining them is in Rev. 11:4..."These are the TWO OLIVE TREES, and the TWO CANDLESTICKS stand! ing before the god of the earth." This is all we are told. N! obody's name is told to us. However, Zechariah chapter 4, especially verse 11, corresponds to Rev. 11 and the two witnesses. Should we be looking for just two people, or should we be looking for something or someone else? Do we really NEED the spirits of Enoch, Elijah, or Moses NOW when our Father has sent us the Holy Spirit to guide and teach us? See John 16:13.

There is from a fantastic book (which I have, and I am studying as well) called "The Bible Wheel" by Richard Amiel McGough. It goes into explaining the two olive trees and the two candlesticks in greater detail:

The Menorah therefore has a total of Twenty-Two Bowls since each side branch has three and the central branch four, yielding 6 x 3 + 4 = 22. The text distinguishes these bowls from the gullah standing above Zechariah's Menorah by using a different word, gavia. Rabbinic tradition teaches that these correspond to the Twenty-Two Letters of the Hebrew Alphabet, the containers (delimiters) of God's creative impulse. I concur, though the details must wait for a later book. For now, the significant point is that the Menorah represents three fundamental aspects of the Bible Wheel:

The Seven Branches correspond to the Seven Canonical Divisions of the Bible Wheel.

The Twenty-Two Bowls correspond to the Twenty-Two Letters that define the Wheel.

The fact that it is a lamp fulfills AV Psalm 119:105: "Thy Word is a Lamp."

And now we are able to see with great simplicity and perfect clarity how Zechariah's visions, given over 400 years before Christ, prophesied the complex structure of the entire Bible:

The Two Olive Trees are the Two Testaments (Old and New) that testify (bear witness) to the Lord of all the earth.

The Two Olive Trees (Testaments) pour the Golden Oil of Spirit-Inspired Books through two Golden Pipes into the Golden Bowl (Gullah).

The Golden Bowl is the Revealer, the One Stone with Seven Eyes, the Capstone, the Stone of Division. It is the Bible Wheel that reveals the sevenfold symmetric perfection of the Bible and its supernatural integration with the Twenty-Two Hebrew Letters.

The Seven Golden Pipes distribute the Golden Oil (Inspired Books) from each of the Seven Canonical Divisions revealed by the Golden Bowl to the Seven Lamps of the Golden Menorah, to enlighten the whole world with the everlasting Light of God's Word through the power of the Holy Spirit.

So, then, perhaps the whole of the (two) witnesses are the true Bible Doctrines going throughout the world during this time by all the selected people whom God chooses to remain behind. Most will be killed during this time and not allowed to be buried...but all will be resurrected prior to the short time of God's wrath at the end of the 1260 days. And then, at the Second Coming, ALL "Israel" shall be saved....all Israel means all of the saved through all the ages. This includes those believing in the "hope" of the Messiah by faith and obedience in the OT, and those who believe by faith and works in the NT.

Well, John and all the Doves....anyone who ha! s any other ideas that are totally scriptural, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, argument about Enoch, Elijah, or Moses coming down to earth again seems to be moot.

YsiC,

Arlene

Hi Arlene,

I have to disagree with the whole foundation of your point here.

It is founded on 12 tribe-ism, where the Gentile church is the NEW 12 tribes. This is a very false doctrine.

#1- How can the woman be the left behind? The church, born again Christianity, was originally Jews and was birthed out of Judaism.

The Gentiles came in later. That is the church today, praise the Lord!

The woman is Israel. She is the Zecharaiah 12 saved Israel during Jacob's trouble: "They will look apon Me whom they have pierced..."

The man child caught up to His throne is Jesus. The 12 stars under her feet is the 12 tribes of Israel. Israel was a virgin (symbolised by Mary) when Jesus was conceived and born to us. Jesus said Himself that salvation is OF the Jews.

#2- The 144000 are Jews, from the 12 tribes of Israel. These are the to be born again men, I am convinced, these are Ultr-Orthodox, from 12 tribes of Israel, who are all here in Israel. Israeli's know that people from all 12 tribes have arrived and are represented here in Israel.

There is only Israel, the Jewish people, and the ingrafted Gentile who are saved by the blood of the Jewish Messiah. (Romans 11).

There is no such thing as "spiritual" Israel. We will be all one in heaven, around the throne, Jew and Gentile, one new man, redeemed from the earth by the same Messiah.

#3- The teaching you brought from this book The Big Wheel brings me a spirit of confusion. I can't find any scriptural foundation for your reasoning. I am fluent in Hebrew and read the bible in Hebrew, so, I looked at the scritures and just coudn't put together the point you were trying to bring. The Rabbinic referenses you bring sound like extra biblical teaching from the Zohar. A menorah has 22 bowls?

I know of no menorah with 22 bowls.

Sorry, Arlene, I think this is error.

JDS