Jim,

I agree with you about the thief, who was saved before he died on his cross, that he went to paradise in heaven.

For years I was taught that he had to go to the lower parts of the earth, until after Jesus’ resurrection.

That he went down, like the beggar, Lazarus, in Luke 16, had to go when he died.

I was taught that before Jesus’ resurrection, that there were two sides of hell, a good side and a bad side.

That sounds eerily like the Elysian Fields side of the underworld, that Greeks believed in.

I had asked where does the Bible teach that.

They told me that Luke 16 shows that, and that the Bible name for Elysian Fields is “Abraham’s bosom”.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

But then I wondered why the word bosom is not capitalized, and also why the very next line:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Describes the actual bosom of Abraham, as where Lazarus is resting against him, not as another name for Elysian Fields.

They say that the great gulf proves it:

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

They say that one could see across the underworld gulf, but not up into heaven, thus supposedly “proving” that Lazarus and Abraham were in the underworld, not in heaven.

But then the first martyr, Stephen, said, right before they stoned him to death:

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

  56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

He was able to see into heaven.

Also, they said the other proof that the used to go to an Elysian Fields in the underworld, is from the I Samuel.

They say that Saul asked the woman with that familiar spirit to bring “up” Samuel, proving that he was in the underworld.

But the context is Saul, who has been troubled by an evil spirit, and in rebellion, and had been trying to kill David,

was about to face the Philistines without being able to hear from the LORD, so he went to a woman with a familiar spirit.

He apparently couldn’t see what was happening, since he had to ask the womean with the familiar spirit what she saw:

I Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

  12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

  13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

He didn’t see those spirits ascending up, nor saw Samuel, but she did, and she told him what she saw.

Also, is that chapter, and its context, the best place to go in the Bible, to determine what is the doctrine of the location of paradise?

They also taught me, that paradise was later transferred up to heaven by Jesus, after he rose from the dead:

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

That would imply that Noah, Abraham, David, Isaiah, and others were in captivity, not paradise.

Also that would imply that Jesus led them captive.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Jesus makes his people free, not captive.

Also, if the old testament saints had to go to the underworld when they died, then why did Aaron and Moses go up into mountains,

only to then have to go back down into the lower parts of the earth?

They told me that no one could got to heaven until after the crucifixion and resurrection.

But what about Elijah?

II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The LORD is in eternity, and doesn’t exist by calendar and clock, i.e. in time, like we do.

He knows the end from the beginning, and is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So, heaven didn’t have to wait until the calendar time of the earth, where here on earth and in time, Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead.

Those things have always been to an eternal being in eternity.