Donna and Doves,
Thank you for your overview of my post from last week and all your feedback questions. It's obvious to me you spent time analyzing all the aspects of what I had written and as a result you brought up good questions and good comments.
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2021/johnb228.htm
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2021/donnad37-2.htm
I'm sure that what I wrote in my post last week took you out of your comfort zone as to what is normally described and accepted as the rapture scenario. The simple “of this world” version of that rapture story line is that Jesus, on an unknown day, hearkens to the dead in Christ and raises them from the dead. He then co-mingles them with the alive in Christ and in the twinkling of an eye changes the whole group from mortal to immortal and removes them from the tribulation that's occurring or about to occur on the earth. This wam bam thank you mam approach to the rapture scenario is IMHO inaccurate and is only a fraction of what really occurs.
Obviously from what I wrote I subscribe to a much greater and detailed story line and back story.
The initial aspect, the red flag if you will, that didn't add up for me and prompted me to take a much harder look at the rapture happenings was found in 1 Thessalonians 4:14. There we see God the Father, not Jesus, bringing the dead in Christ with Him when He comes from heaven. That's a poured in concrete fact.
So.....Jesus can't combine the dead and the alive in Christ together until His Father brings the dead in Christ to earth when He comes.......fact.
So this begs the question.....when and why does the Father relocate His Kingdom to earth?
A little background facts first....
Jesus tells us that the Father will indeed relocate His kingdom here in Matthew 6:10. So that part is also a poured in concrete fact.
Also.....In Habakkuk 3:3 we see the prophet Habakkuk telling us that both the God the Father and the Holy One (the Son) come to earth. The Father leaving from Teman and the Son (The Holy One) leaving from Mount Paran.
Also.....Revelation 6 speaks to both the Father and the Son being present here on earth in verses 16-17.
When both the Father and Son show up here face to face with humanity the bible refers to that day as ….The Day of the Lord. That particular day as scripted in part in Revelation 6:17 (and over a dozen other areas of scripture) and is the start of the wrath of the Father and the Son.
So again when and why does this happen that the Father relocates His kingdom here to earth?
One has to factor is the war in heaven expressed and detailed in Revelation 12. There we see the good angels led by Michael defeat and then oust Satan and his angels. Oust them where.... to earth. Also in that Revelation 12 chapter we see that once Satan and his forces reach earth they go on a rampage to attack (make war) against those who keep the commandments of the Father (the Jews) and those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ....the Christians.
So, if The Father is to protect His and His Son's harvest of “alive souls” so to speak He needs to align His forces against the Satanic forces on earth or provide a safe refuge or there would be no harvest of (alive) souls.....Satan's forces would destroy them all. So there needs to be a safe refuge to take these Jews and Gentiles to keep them safe. This would be (in my mind) the first reason to relocate the Father's kingdom to earth......to provide a safe refuge.
The second reason to relocate the kingdom...... as per the official Jewish wedding ceremony / procedure......would be to hold a wedding ceremony for Jesus and His bride in the Father's house......which will be relocated here on earth because the Father brought most of the bridal party with Him when he came as per 1 Thessalonians 4:14. He brought the dead in Christ with Him.......untold millions of them.
A third reason to relocate the Father's kingdom here is in my mind a tactical military one. It's obvious in Revelation 6 that the Father closed up the heavens above when He left that realm. Many many passages in scripture depicting the sun and moon darkened, the stars fallen and gone and even the sky above..... like the ceiling of a planetarium...... rolled up like a scroll. This closure of those heavenly entities robs Satan the access to them. Remember he is the prince of the power of the air. Without anything above us, after the Father temporarily or permanently shudders it....... in my mind, it cripples Satan's ability to operate there.
Obviously in my recent post I went into great detail describing what the Father's new kingdom complex is......it's New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21 and 22.
Now we need to look at “when” this New Jerusalem complex arrives on earth. Obviously it must arrive soon after the war in heaven when the Satanic forces are banished to earth before they can destroy “the alive” Father and Son's followers.
Let me just inject an overview of some time intervals that play into this before we go farther in the time arrival of New Jerusalem.
First there appears to be two 3.5 year periods totaling 7 years.
The two end time witnesses preach the gospel of the kingdom for the first half of the 7 years.
The antichrist has roughly (2) 3.5 year periods. The first 3.5 year period runs concurrently with the ministry and time frame of the two end time witnesses. During this first 3.5 year period the antichrist comes off as Mr. Nice Guy trying to suck-in / deceive as many souls as possible. Then at the 42 month mark or at the end of his first 3.5 years or at the half way point of the 7 years he turns into the monster that he is.....read Revelation 13:5-8.
At some point in the first 3.5 year period of the antichrist maybe near the 1200 day mark (of that 1260 day total) he has a talking statue, an avatar of himself erected in Jerusalem some say in a new Jewish temple, some say on the summit of Muslim All-ax Mosque (the fortress of the high fort of your walls.....Isaiah 25) there in Jerusalem.
Prophesies by Jesus, Isaiah, Zechariah and Daniel put a much closer time frame on when this New Jerusalem complex is installed on earth. They all add pieces to the time puzzle.
Jesus in Matthew 24 gives us a time stamp and a huge alert that a major event is to happen in the Middle East. He says when you see the abomination that leads to desolation as spoken of by the prophet Daniel “standing”.....(Daniel says “set up”) in the holy place..... then all those people there (with discernment) in Jerusalem are to run and escape to the mountains. Why does Jesus give this prophecy, this alert? Because He knows that this abominable act by the antichrist will prompt the Father to reply / engage / react. The Father does so by terra-forming / re-landscaping a vast segment of the Middle East (Isaiah 25:10-12) which includes half of Jerusalem. Why?....to accommodate the foundation of His relocated kingdom...New Jerusalem which has a huge 1500 square mile footprint. Isaiah 25 says that all those who find themselves underneath this huge new structure will be trampled down as straw in trampled down for the refuse heap. Isaiah says that the Father will clear the land with the action of a swimmer doing the breaststroke. Why?...to accommodate a structure, New Jerusalem, that has a huge 1500 square mile footprint upon the earth which will displace whole countries and a huge landmass there in the Middle East.
Jesus (in Matthew 24) refers us to the prophet Daniel to time stamp these events. So going to Daniel 12:11 we see him describing the same “abomination of desolation” event. And then Daniel “time stamps' that event. He says that when this statue, this avatar of the beast is set-up.....there shall be 1290 days. The presumption being that there will be 1290 days left in the 7 year period. That makes sense to me when other time intervals given to us are taken into consideration. It makes sense to me that the antichrist would set this talking statue of himself up in Jerusalem at that point which would be approximately 1230 days from when he and the two witnesses started their ministries at the start of the 7 year period or 30 days prior to the midpoint of the 7 years.
And it appears that this is the time frame / time stamp when the Father comes to destroy this abomination, this statue, and also to intervene for His covenant people there in Israel.
We can take another look a all of this same story line from the perspective of the prophet Zechariah...........
Zechariah says in chapter 14 that Israel will be under attack by all nations when the Father comes to intervene for the Jews there, Jews that He has a covenant relationship with.
It says in in verses 3-5 that He goes forth and fights those nations. It says there that He steps on The Mount of Olives and it separates, it splits in two from north to south causing and creating a huge new valley. This new valley provides an escape route and a secure location for the remnant Jews that The Father saves from this onslaught / attack by all nations. He is re-arranging or terra-forming the ground like is referenced by Isaiah.
Then look at the end of verse 5,......”Thus the Lord my God (God the Father) will come, And all the saints (dead in Christ) with You.
This verse in Zechariah authenticates what was written in 1 Thessalonians 4 where we see the Father bring the dead in Christ with Him when He comes.
Then what do we see next in verse 6 of Zechariah 14.....we see the Father creates a special day just like the special day known only to the Father referenced in Matthew 24:36. Zechariah says it this way.....
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord--
Neither day nor light.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
It appears to me that the Father uses this special unique day to relocate His huge New Jerusalem kingdom complex onto it's new foundation adjacent to Jerusalem without interference from satanic forces. And also Jesus uses this special day to “gather” the elect (the alive in Christ and remnant Jews) to the safety of the New Jerusalem complex as well......this being described in Matthew 24:30-31.
Again as per Daniel this all happens soon after the talking statue of the antichrist, the abomination that leads to desolation is set up in Jerusalem. Which Daniel seemingly tags as 1290 days before the end of the 7 years or approximately 1230 days from the start of the 7 year trib period.
Donna, you also had questions / concerns as to the “mandatory” John 3:3-8 born again ceremony I described in my post that I believe will happen within the New Jerusalem complex within the new river containing pure living waters. Zechariah 14:8
As per Zechariah it appears that part of this complex will cover, set on top of the Mount of Olives and part of the city of Jerusalem. Zechariah 8 says that a new river will emanate from a spot there in Jerusalem. When? After the Father terra-forms that area after He arrives with His kingdom. It says this river will contain pure living waters.......Isaiah says, “wells of salvation” indicating salvation is tied into this river.
It's doesn't take much Spiritual discernment to realize that Jesus left not only His water and blood there on the ground but also His Spirit when He was crucified there.......... as is revealed in John 19:30 and 34.
Donna, in your reply to me you quoted several bible verses to build a case that no special immersion was necessary to quality one to be born again or to enter the kingdom of heaven. You inferred that once you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and are filled with the Spirit one has all the qualifications needed. I once believed that but not anymore.....here's why.
Paul in Romans 8 tells us that if we are led by the Spirit of God then we are sons of God. But this Spirit as per verse 15 is a “Spirit of adoption” sealing us (if you will) that we are children of God....but it's just the adoption quantity of the Spirit and as per verse 23, it's just the “first fruits”of the Spirit. Certainly leading one to believe that more of that Spirit is somehow necessary.
Then there is the verse you Donna quoted me from 1John 1:7 ….”the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin”.....this is a literal statement not a figurative one.
So somehow we who are Christians have to be exposed to the actual blood of Jesus to be cleansed from sin. Does scripture echo this?
Read Revelation 7:14......There we see one of the elders saying of the multitude he is seeing......”These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Again this is a literal factual reality not a figurative one. We have to immerse ourselves in the blood of the Lamb, just as Jesus said twice in John 3 or we cannot see or enter the kingdom of God.
I described in detail in my post as to how the bride of Christ accomplishes this within the new river that springs up in Jerusalem after the Father secures and transforms that area of the Middle East. This river will contains the literal, water, blood and Spirit of Jesus which Jesus mandates in John 3 are necessary to be “born again”, to remove sin and corruption and qualify us to see and enter the kingdom of God in an immortal state.
Paul talked about the “first fruits” of this Spirit in Romans 8, well think of what we receive in this new river of living waters and wells of salvation as....the final fruits of the Spirit necessary for us to be transformed from mortal to immortal so that we can see and enter the kingdom of God.
I said in my post that God the Father brings the dead in Christ with Him within the New Jerusalem complex when He relocates His kingdom here to earth and that Jesus as per Matthew 24 “gathers” the alive in Christ and brings them also into the Father's house.....just like the Jewish wedding ritual.
Also there is a foreshadowing of all of this in The Book of Joshua where we see Joshua crossing the Jordan River and entering the promise land. I will copy below this foreshadowing scenario that I wrote a couple years ago that scripts what will happen when the alive in Christ are gathered together with the dead in Christ in the New Jerusalem complex / the Father's house after it is established here on earth.
My copied text below....
First......When did Joshua and the remnant exodus Jews enter into this “new land”across the Jordan River, this new land that will be a shadow of things to come?
As per scripture Nisan 10 (Joshua 4:19)
Then, after they crossed the river, all the Jewish males were circumcised. They were altered to re-establish the covenant with the Father and then spent 4 days healing from that circumcision....that renewing process.
It appears to me based on what happened in the past as per Joshua, that we Christians collectively will spend 4 days being “altered” by being bathed in the new river of “living waters” which will renew and fulfill our “new covenant” relationship and also “take in” our total measure of the Spirit of Jesus by literally bathing in His blood. This will take us from our “adoption level of Spirit”as expressed in Romans 8, which was just a foretaste (small quantity).... to the final level of Jesus's Spirit which completes us.
Then Joshua and the remnant Jews from the exodus celebrated Passover four days later on Nisan 14 and then the Seder meal the following day after Passover. Joshua 5:10
Again, lets fast forward....Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb, the Passover Lamb who shed His blood and died for us at His crucifixion. He was buried and arose from the dead on the third day. We now call His resurrection “first fruits”and it happens on the third day after Passover.
Again, lets fast forward to what I believe is to come in the future. The Christian church will enter the New Jerusalem complex created by God the Father on Nisan 10 as figuratively did Joshua and the exodus Jews.
The “renewing procedure” to process the entire Christian church (hundreds of millions of them) in the “living waters” will take 4 days as is paralleled in Joshua. It appears the Christian church will then celebrate Passover in this new complex, the promised land on Nisan 14 as did Joshua. This meal and the menu with both remnant Jews and Gentiles is described in Isaiah 25:6
The Christians and Jews will both celebrate as Joshua did by having a meal on the day after Passover. Joshua 5:10-12 This will be the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, a huge party thrown by the Father of the groom.
I believe Elijah, as being one of the end time witnesses, will attend that meal as well which will fulfill “the tradition” of setting Elijah a plate for the Seder meal....as per Malachi. And both end time witnesses will be there to.. yes... witness the wedding ceremony between Christ and His bride.
Then, the next day which will be the third day of Passover or Nisan 16 is I believe the day synonymous with when Jesus resurrected from the dead. And also the day Jesus will hearken to us from above New Jerusalem for our resurrection / rapture event. Changing us from mortal to immortal in the twinkling of an eye and bringing to completion...... the whole immortal body of Christ.
So these are “generic” Nisan / first month of the Jewish year dates. Now we have to plug in those generic Nisan dates into a certain year in the future to establish ...yes....a firm rapture date.
Donna you talked and seemed to include the new heaven and new earth part of scripture into this.....it appears to me from how I read that passage that this happens after the 1000 year millennial period ends.
Donna, one more thing you mentioned that is confusing to me as well and that's the passage in Revelation 15 where the last seven angels are dispatched to dispense the last of God's wrath. If my scenario is correct these angels are dispatched from within the Father's kingdom which will then be on earth in the form of New Jerusalem. But the wording there in Revelation 15 would lead some to believe that these angels are dispatched from heaven (not earth) because of the wording in verse 5. It says that these angels are somehow affiliated with a heavenly organization called....”the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven”..... leading some to believe these angels are dispatched from heaven not from the Father's kingdom then on earth.
To me this confusing phrase describes a group of angels that belong to a company, a platoon, a brigade or some sort of heavenly group that is affiliated with …..the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony..... that was formed in heaven but now resides on earth within the Father's relocated kingdom complex.
Kind of like saying of the major league baseball team the Brooklyn Dodgers. Well they used to be in Brooklyn but they re-located and are now in Los Angeles.
And again to clear up the questions you seemed to have with my math on all of this let me list what appears to be the reality from scripture.
…....A roughly 7 year tribulation time frame.....there is a reference to that period being cut short
…....A 1260 day, 42 month, 3.5 year ministry of the two witnesses kicking off the start of the nearly 7 year year period
…....The first part of the antichrist's reign or roughly 1260 days running concurrently with the ministry period of the two end time witnesses
…...The second part of the antichrist's reign when he turns from Mr. Nice guy to a monster starts at the 42 month mark (3.5 years) from the beginning of the trib period
….....As per Daniel 12, it appears there will be 1290 days from when the antichrist erects the talking statue in Jerusalem until the end of the tribulation period
…....so then, roughly 30 days prior to the midpoint of the 7 years (1290-1260=30) the abomination (statue) is set-up prompting the Father to intervene for Israel who is being attacked and relocate His New Jerusalem kingdom to earth.
…....very soon after the New Jerusalem complex is set up and arranged here on earth Jesus and the angels gather “the elect”, the alive in Christ and some remnant Jews to be taken to the safety and security of that complex, the Father's house, where the total of the bride in Christ will be processed (so to speak) as is foreshadowed in The Book of Joshua.
What I described is only the high points of the total story of all of this....one could write a long book just on the events of what is titled …..The Day of the Lord.
There are chapters in Ezekiel and other places seemingly describing the destruction / desolation that results when God the Father re-arranges the vast tract of land necessary to accommodate New Jerusalem, a beyond huge structure that has an earthly footprint of 1500 square miles and also is 1500 miles high.
If you get a map of the Middle East and pretend you are parking this giant structure next to Jerusalem and then extend it out 1500 miles you'll be amazed what will be covered up when this is landed and located.
God used the term “abomination that leads to desolation” the abomination part refers to the talking statue, the avatar of the antichrist and his declaration that he is god over everything. The real God takes exception to that abominable lie and lands a mega mega structure on top of it (Isaiah 25) and on vast portions of the Middle East.......hence the second part of that phrase.......that leads to desolation / destruction.
The Muslim billionaires in the Middle east keep constructing buildings higher and higher......like modern day Nimrod's building their own Tower of Babel's. I believe the tallest one over there that they have built is about a mile and a half high and their chests are all puffed out in pride and arrogance.
Won't they be humbled when God the Father parks his new building over there that's 1500 miles high.......of which when Isaiah viewed it he was lost for words. He simply called it a great mountain. Why wouldn't you....if you viewed it from a distance you wouldn't be able to see the top or the ends of it.
I hope Donna that in writing this I cleared up the questions and scripture verses I presented in the past that may have seemed puzzling or confusing and that you can see what I believe scripture really tells us about the rapture.....which is only the tip of the iceberg in the context of the whole end times story line.
Blessings Donna...........John B