Barry Amundsen (24 June
2013)
"Answering Gary B. 24
elders and 144,000"
Revelation 5:
8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts
and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having
every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which
are the prayers of saints.
9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy
to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast
slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every
kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth.
Gary B.
You are correct that it says that the four beasts and the four
and twenty elders are singing this new song and does not say
that the four and twenty elders are the church but it does give
information from which we can make determinations of at least
who they are not. They have been redeemed by the blood of the
Lamb so they are humans not angels, they are from every kindred,
tongue, people, and nation, so they are not Jews or Israelites
only so they are not Jesus' disciples, they have been made kings
and priests and will (still future at this point) reign on
earth, they are not the saints that are still on earth for they
have golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of
saints so there are still saints on earth at this point who are
praying but once you are in heaven you no longer need to pray
for yourself... If this is not the church, then who?
As for when the 144,000 will be preaching, it is relatively
recent that a view known as "pre wrath" rapture has been gaining
acceptance. The view held more commonly before this view and the
difference between the two was that the rapture was believed to
have to take place before any of Daniel's 70th week (a 7 year
period unless it is shortened) would begin at all and this would
allow for the 144,000 to be preaching along with the two
witnesses any time during the final 7 years because it used to
all be viewed as God's wrath and Jacob's trouble which we as
Jesus' church were not appointed to but raptured before any of
it could begin. However with the view called "pre wrath" the
church remains here for at least some part of Daniel's 70th week
but just not the "wrath" part. In this view we are seen as
possibly already having entered the final 7 years now and await
the rapture to happen any time now prior to the actual wrath of
God being poured out. So you are pointing out that the 144,000
are sealed just prior to the wrath being poured out and
therefore are here for the last half. I just find it possible
that the entire time of Jacob's trouble may be wrath which we
are not appointed to any of and that none of it has begun yet.
The difficulty with the "pre wrath" view, which suggests that we
are currently nearly through the first 3.5 years of the 70th
week, in my opinion, is that it greatly reduces the time period
for the events described in Revelation to all fit into a
shrinking time period because we have as yet seen NONE of the
things going on that are supposed to be happening during the
final 7 years known as Jacob's trouble. No 144,000, no two
witnesses, no "beast out of the bottomless pit-Antichrist," no
false prophet, or any of the other horrible things described and
it begins to seem hard to imagine all of these things taking
place in just the last 3.5 years when you place them all
together as happening together as Patti C. pointed out, how can
it be? How can the two witnesses preach for 3.5 years then be
killed by AC and the whole world rejoice over their dead bodies
and send gifts to one another at the END when the whole world is
completely destroyed? The description sounds too much like a
relatively stable world system is in place when the end of their
preaching has come for the whole world to look on their dead
bodies (on TV, Internet) and then they are called up to heaven
and the world fears. None of this has happened yet but it gets
difficult for me to picture this fitting into the last half of
the tribulation period when you consider all the other things
that will be going on then. More likely to me none of it has
begun yet and this allows for the entire period of Jacob's
trouble to be yet future and gives ample time for the two
witnesses to preach for 3.5 years and still be a stable enough
world to look on them and send gifts and fulfill the whole
prophecy concerning them. We will be in heaven regardless when
all this takes place. Hooray! Meeee Meeee Meeee Meeee....
(That's me warming up my singing voice getting ready to sing
that new song, I can hardly wait!)
Therefore, it makes me tend to go back to the previous belief
that we have as yet not entered any part of the 70th week of
Daniel and our assumptions about the beginnings of the final 7
years having already begun must be wrong. In summation, to me
all of the 70th week of Daniel could be wrath not just the last
half and therefore the 144,000 could be preaching during the
first half and not limited to only the last half.