Hello Mike and all Doves!
I this should probably be two letters, but thought it best to just make it one. First of all, about your post on the website about Nibiru, that you originally sent awhile back, I too went in a few days ago to see it again, but it was gone.
(RE: Mike Plunkett (17 July 2012)
"UPDATE, to ALL DOVES on the NIBIRU website that I sent to Carol about her dream of the planetary destruction!!!")
Yet, when VR2 asked me to send it to her, I went in again to check it and make sure it was gone, but it was there!! It takes a while to download, as it is 117 pages long. So I went ahead and sent the link to VR2. Then seeing your post about how it had been removed, I went in again using the link I sent, and it opened fine for me. Not sure what is up with that…but hope it will work for others.
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Secondly, I want to tell you that I am in agreement with what you have written to Marilyn about Rev 4 and 5 and the Rapture.
Mike Plunkett (17 July 2012)
"Marilyn Agee response to Mike Plunkett July 14"
That being said, I would like to share a commentary by Peter Goodgame, on the subject of these chapters and the 24 Elders. This is perhaps the best commentary I have seen on this issue, and found this after I had come to the same conclusions myself. I hope you enjoy it, and it adds nicely with what you conveyed in your post, in such an excellent manner!!Thanks Mike!!Do the twenty-four elders "represent" a raptured/resurrected Church?
One of the foundations of pre-tribulationism is consistent literal interpretation without unwarranted symbolic interpretations or subjective assumptions. One of the few glaring instances where this rule is ignored is in regard to the twenty-four elders. Fruchtenbaum himself comments on the fact that the twenty-four elders are never explained as being representative of something else saying, "...the text does not clearly state as to what these twenty-four elders refer..." That is correct. The text does not say that they "refer" to anything other than what they are.
Throughout the prophetic scriptures, when a symbol is mentioned it is almost always explained,
Daniel 7
17. The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.
23. The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth
24. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom.
Daniel 8
20. The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia.
21. The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king.
22. The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms...
Revelation 1
20. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Revelation 4
5. The seven lamps are the seven spirits of God.
Revelation 17
9-10. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings.
11. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king.
12. The ten horns you saw are ten kings
15. The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
18. The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.Why then do we never hear the explanation, "The twenty-four elders you saw are those who were taken from the earth and protected from the wrath of God”?The fact is that the twenty-four elders are never once implied to be symbolic of, or representative of, anything other than what they clearly are. Even the great multitude of Revelation 7 is explained as being those "...who have come out of the great tribulation..." (More on this group later).Why is the identity of every symbol in Revelation explained, including the great multitude, with the lone exception being the identity of the twenty-four elders?
I believe that there is no explanation given for the identity of the twenty-four elders because there is no explanation needed. They simply are twenty-four elders. They are twenty-four saved human men who have been taken to heaven and right now hold positions of authority in heaven. Why should it be considered presumptuous to think that a small finite number of human beings have been chosen by God to be in heaven with Him at this time? We know that there are at least three: Enoch, Elijah, and Moses. From their cases we know that God has shown a propensity to take great saints to heaven to live with Him. The Bible may only specifically refer to three that He has taken to heaven but this does not prohibit any more from being in heaven. There is much that God has done that is not recorded in the Bible.
Now we will focus on a group of saints that were in all likelihood taken to heaven sometime after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but prior to the formation of the Church at Pentecost.
The Resurrection of a group of Old Testament saints at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matthew 27:50-53
Prior to this time, in all of Biblical history, there had been only a handful of resurrections: Elisha and the son of the Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4), Jesus and the young girl (Matthew 9:18-26), Jesus and Lazarus (John 11:38-44). In each of these prior cases the dead person was resurrected, but only back to mortality, and afterwards the resurrected person lived out the rest of his or her natural life only to die later on a second time. The single exception to all of these cases was the case of Moses. Moses died prior to the entering of Israel into the Promised Land. In Deuteronomy 34:6 we are told that he was buried in Moab in a specific valley "opposite Beth Peor," but that "to this day no one knows where his grave is."
The reason that Moses' grave has never been found is because his body was resurrected to immortality and he was taken to heaven. We know this from various texts including the mention of Moses at the site of Jesus' transfiguration in Matthew 17. Jude also tells us that the body of Moses was retrieved by the archangel Michael, but as Michael was going about this task a strange thing happened: Satan came on the scene and disputed with him over the ownership of the body. Apparently Satan believed that he had the legal right to the body of Moses, however on this point Michael did not even argue, he simply responded by saying "The Lord rebuke you!" and continued on his task. From these texts we know that Moses was resurrected not to mortality, but to immortality and to a glorified body that he might live in heaven with the Lord.
From the resurrection occurrences prior to the crucifixion we can draw some conclusions regarding God's purpose in these resurrections and the basis for which he might resurrect some to mortality and others to immortality.
The young boy, the girl and Lazarus had all died prematurely and had not experienced the fullness of their natural lives. It is safe to assume that all of these people were God-fearing and good people, yet they were not powerful leaders or prophets. By resurrecting these people God was demonstrating several things about His character, including His mercy, His power and the fact that God took pity, not only on the ones who had died, but primarily on the surrounding family members who were grief stricken at their inexplicable sudden loss of a dear loved one.
That was God's purpose in these cases. He was showing His compassion. He brought these people back to life, bringing great joy to the lives of those around them. However, they were resurrected only to mortality, they lived out their lives, and then they again passed away once their natural lives had run their course.
It was an entirely different situation with Moses. His death did not leave family members in a demoralized state of sudden loss because Moses died at a ripe old age of 120 years old. And his resurrection did not bring joy and comfort to those around him because he was taken to heaven and not allowed to continue on earth. It is clear that the resurrection of Moses took place for an entirely different set of reasons. First, God resurrected Moses because God had developed a very close and personal bond with this human being over the course of his 120 year life, from the time he was placed in a reed basket and guided to the hands of Pharaoh's daughter, to his confrontation with God at the burning bush, to the time he was allowed to glimpse the glory of the Lord on Mount Sinai (Exodus 33:18-23), and throughout his triumphs and failings as the leader of God's people on earth.
It is entirely possible that God felt the loss of Moses with as much grief and sadness as any of Moses' family members. The first reason for resurrecting Moses was that God missed him. The second reason, and the one that applies to the study at hand, is that God also resurrected Moses because he wanted to reward him for his service to God, for a job well done, and for a life well lived. These are two of the reasons for which Moses was resurrected to immortality.
Now we must examine the case of the group of Old Testament saints who were resurrected at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. What was the basis for their resurrection? What was God trying to demonstrate, and were they resurrected to a brief mortality or to an eternal immortality? The clues are few, yet they combine with simple common sense and are enough to arrive at solid conclusions regarding these questions.
They are described as "holy people" (NIV) or "saints" (KJV) "who had died..." so they were people who had served the God of Israel with loyalty and devotion, and most probably they were not people who had died sudden premature deaths. With this in mind it becomes clear that they were not resurrected primarily because God pitied them or their families, or for the purpose of showing His compassion.
These Old Testament saints were simply resurrected as a reward that they might be on earth to witness the resurrection of the promised Messiah which all of Israel's prophets had looked forward to. With all of Israel's saints to choose from we can be assured that God did not pick at random the men to be rewarded with this honor.Now were these honored saints resurrected only to mortality, to soon die, rot and decay, going back to the dust which they had been liberated from? Certainly many of these, probably most of them, had lived out long natural lives, dying only after coming to the fullness of their mortality. If some of these had originally died of old age, and they were then resurrected to mortality, then they would simply have had no natural life left in them with which to live.
This group is also said to have come out of their tombs, and then "...after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." This seems to imply that their appearance was a temporary occurrence. They did not then take up jobs, find homes to live in and become members of the early church and of society. If this was the case then how come this group of saints is only described by Matthew? Other writers such as Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul do not mention them, and indeed nowhere else in the New Testament is this group mentioned. This is evidence that their appearance was only for a brief time, however it does not seem reasonable that God would have resurrected this select group of saints, have them testify about His glory and power after the resurrection of Jesus, and then watch them croak and rot back into the dust again days later.
Further information that may apply to these Old Testament saints can be gleaned from a study of the state of the dead prior to the sacrificial death of Jesus. Here are some brief words on this topic from Arnold Fruchtenbaum (The Footsteps of the Messiah, pp. 363-364),
"Throughout the pages of the Old Testament, both righteous and unrighteous were said to go to a place called in Hebrew Sheol and in Greek Hades. While the Old Testament sacrifices covered the sins of the Old Testament saints, it did not remove their sins (Hebrews 10:4). Only the death of the Messiah could do that. So while the sacrificial system was sufficient to keep them from hell, it was not able to get them into heaven. So, all who died, both righteous and unrighteous, went to a place known as Sheol or Hades.
This place contained two compartments, and a description of the two sides of Sheol or Hades is found in Luke 16:19-31...
...Sheol or Hades had two compartments. One compartment was for the unrighteous, and it could be called Hell in the way we use that term today; it was indeed a place of torment (verses 23-25, 28). The other compartment where the righteous went was known as Abraham's Bosom (verse 22); and it was a place of comfort (verse 25) but it was not heaven. Elsewhere the righteous portion of Sheol or Hades is called Paradise as in Luke 23:43...
...While the two sides could see each other and communicate with each other, they were separated by an immense gulf (verse 26) that made it impossible for someone on one side to cross over to the other side.
So, when the Old Testament saint died, his body was buried in the earth while his soul went to Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. On the other hand, when an Old Testament sinner died, his body was also buried in the ground, but his soul went into hell.
When Christ died, He not only paid the price of all future sins, but He also paid the price of all previous sins (Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:15). Thus, the sins of the Old Testament saints were removed.
What happens next is described in Ephesians 4:8-10:
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men. (Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)While the body of Christ remained in the tomb, His soul went down into the paradise side of Sheol or Hades announcing that the atonement had been made. At the time of His ascension, all the souls of the Old Testament saints were removed out of Abraham's bosom or Paradise and brought into heaven. In this way the righteous portion of Sheol or Hades was eliminated and is no longer in existence.Today, when an unbeliever dies, his body is still buried in the ground and his soul still goes into hell. However, when the believer dies, though his body is also buried in the ground, his soul goes immediately into heaven... "
Dr. Fruchtenbaum believes that the announcement of the atonement was made in Sheol during the time Jesus' body was in the tomb; however we know that the atonement itself was paid in full at the instant that Jesus Christ died on the cross. Revelation 5:9 says that it was the blood of Christ that "purchased men for God." It was at the very instant that Jesus died that any claim Satan might have had over the bodies of the Old Testament saints was ended.
Satan could no longer claim possession as he tried to do with Moses. It was at this instant when the graves of a few chosen Old Testament saints were broken open and they were resurrected, later appearing in Jerusalem and probably testifying about their release from Sheol. It is also illogical to think that these saints were merely resurrected to mortality, to die again after a brief span of days or months. These men were most likely taken to heaven, raptured from wherever they were either before or at the same time Jesus ascended, when He also took with Him the rest of the souls who had been liberated from Sheol.
And these are the men, as well as Enoch, Elijah, Moses and any others that the Lord has raptured or resurrected over the ages, which John witnessed in heaven and described simply as the twenty-four elders.
Revelation 4-5Those who support the twenty-four elders as being representative of the church like to point out the fact that in 1 Chronicles 24 David divided the priestly tribe of Levi into twenty-four groups to represent the whole. It is reasoned that the twenty-four elders represent the church in heaven because the church is also referred to as a kingdom of priests. It must be agreed that the twenty-four elders do hold positions of authority in heaven and that they are a part of saved and redeemed humanity. They, like all of us, were saved by the sacrificial death of the Messiah. In this context they could be "representative" of redeemed humanity, yet this does not mean that all of humanity, or even just the church, must also be in heaven when they are seen in heaven in Revelation 4.
These elders are living with God the Father right now, and they are seated on thrones that surround the throne of God (4:4). At this time these elders are holding golden bowls full of incense (5:8), which are described as "the prayers of the saints." These are our prayers, the prayers that come from the church, that are disseminated in heaven, through the bowls that the elders hold, as sweet-smelling incense. These prayers are not only the prayers of "tribulation saints" as some interpretations are forced to conclude; they are the prayers of believers today.
A common belief among pre-trib scholars is that the taking of John, in the spirit, up to heaven in chapter four of Revelation is also representative of the rapture of the Church, whereupon John immediately sees the twenty-four elders seated on thrones around the throne of God. This is based in part on the promise in Revelation 3:20, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." It is also based on Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that the rapture will occur at the sound of a trumpet. These two predictions are said to be fulfilled when Paul is told in Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, 'Come up here...' "
Even Fruchtenbaum, who supports the idea that the twenty-four elders represent the church, rejects this interpretation of the passage. He writes,"Many pre-millennialists see the rapture of the church in this verse, but this requires somewhat of an allegorical interpretation. Following the golden rule of interpretation, this verse merely contains an invitation for John to come to heaven in vision (verse 2) in order that God can show him the things which must come to pass hereafter... The invitation to John is not a symbol of the Rapture..." (The Footsteps of the Messiah, p.113).
If the rapture occurs at the same time as John is taken to heaven in 4:1 as many pre-tribulationists believe, or even prior to this as Fruchtenbaum believes, then a serious problem arises. The Apostle Paul was very specific when he described the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. It is clear that after the rapture we, the Body of Christ, will never be separated from our Savior as he writes, "...And so we will be with the Lord forever." The problem is that the twenty-four elders are first described in heaven in Revelation 4:4, yet Jesus Christ is not shown in heaven until Revelation 5:6.
Within this period of time John witnesses God the Father as He holds the seven-sealed scroll, then he listens as a mighty angel asks for someone to be found who is worthy to open the scroll. No one in heaven, or on the earth or under the earth is found and John describes how he wept and wept because of this. Finally, after some period of time, John is approached and told that the Lion of Judah, Jesus the Messiah, has been found and is able to open the scroll and break the seals.It is definitely a mystery as to why Jesus was not immediately found and why John wept, but the problem is still there. Certainly when the church is raptured we will be immediately taken into the glorious presence of our Lord and Savior. We will not have to wait in heaven for any amount of time for Jesus to come on the scene, and once we do meet Him He will never leave us. This is yet another reason why the twenty-four elders must not represent the raptured church._{}[For a detailed look at the entire Timeline of the Apocalypse see the book Red Moon Rising, which can be read online for free here]############
Many blessings to all doves and watchers…our job will soon be finished and we will fly!!!Patti C.