From: Marilyn Agee
Hi:
My
response here is black with yellow highlights.
>
> Where in
chapter 5 of Revelations, does it say that the
redeemed saints out of every kindred, tongue, and
people, and nation, are present around the throne of
God? It does not. I think you have mistaken what it
says in verse 11.....
Revelations
5: 11......And I beheld, and I heard
the voice of many angels round
about the throne and the beasts and the elders:
and the number of them (many angels) was ten
thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of
thousands;
> > You cannot imply that
"they" are anything other than the 24 elders and
the 4 beasts that are singing a new song or that
"us" is anyone other than the 24 elders and the 4
beasts.
Look at what you wrote
yourself. You proved my point. The saints are out of
every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
There are only 24 elders and 4 beasts, i.e., 28
total. You said,
> > the saints are
included as being redeemed to God where it says
"us", they are included out of every kindred, and
tongue, and people, and nation.
I agree. That’s correct. The saints are out of
every kindred, tongue, people and nation.
Rev 5:8-10 (KJV) says, “And when he (Jesus) had
taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty
elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of
them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are
the prayers of SAINTS. And THEY (THE SAINTS)
sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the
book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast
slain, and hast redeemed us (THE SAINTS) to God by thy
blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and
people, and nation; And hast made us (THE SAINTS)
unto our God kings and priests: and we (THE SAINTS)
shall reign on (epi, on or over) the earth.”
> > the pronoun "us"
is referring back to the noun "prayers".
Prayers are not called “us.” People are called
“us.”
> > Marilyn,
the firstfruits are called firstfruits because
they are taken FIRST! Which means they are
taken in the BARLEY harvest, barley comes before
wheat. They are not split up. We are told who they
are in:
Revelations 14: 4........These
are they which were not defiled with women; for
they are virgins. These are they which follow the
Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed
from among men, being the firstfruits
unto God and to the Lamb.
Both the First-Trump Rapture and the Last-Trump
Rapture are firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.
Rev_14:4 says, “These are they which were not
defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are
they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits
unto God and to the Lamb.
> > During this reply to
you and JUST now, I think the Lord has
revealed to me who the 2 witnesses are!
The very first place that it mentions an ascension
to heaven in revelations is at 11: 12......And
they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto
them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to
heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld
them.
This is talking about the 2 witnesses and
their dead bodies were left to lie in the street of
the great city. I think the 2 witnesses are the
Northern and the Southern kingdoms of ISRAEL.
> > the last (rapture)
does not appear to happen at the same time as the
wrath of God.
The Northern and Southern kingdoms of ISRAEL can’t
lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3.5 days, be
resurrected and ascend to heaven. I think the two
witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
Zec 4:12-14 says, “I answered again, and said unto
him, What be these two olive branches which through
the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of
themselves? 13 And he answered me and said,
Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my
lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two
anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole
earth.”
Both Moses and Elijah stood by
Jesus, the Lord of the whole earth, at his
Transfiguration.
Mat 17:2,3 says that Jesus “was transfigured before
them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his
raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold,
there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with
him.”
Jesus is YHWH king of Israel
and YHWH the redeemer, the Lord of hosts.
Isa 44:6 says, “Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King
of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts;
I am the first (YHWH King of Israel), and I am the
last (YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer); and beside me
there is no God.”
Agape,
Marilyn Agee
prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com
Hi Marilyn,
My response to your response to my
response! 
My original post is in
black, your response is in red, and my response to
that is in blue.
My original post is in
black, your response is in red, and my response to
that is in blue.From: Marilyn
Agee
Hi:
>
> Respectfully,
the bible disagrees with you.
I don’t think so.
> > Revelations
4:1...........After this I looked,
and behold, a door was opened in heaven:
and the first voice which I heard
was as it were of a trumpet talking
with me; which said, Come
up hither, and I will shew thee
things which must be hereafter.
> > Respectfully,
this is a voice that sounds like a trumpet
to John that is talking to him. It is
telling him to come up here and I will
show you things that must be
hereafter..........
> > Marilyn, this is
obviously an angel that is to show John
things to come later on.......thus, the
word hereafter is used. John was
given the gift of going into heaven in the
spirit and was shown the throne of God.
The entire chapter 4 of Revelations is a
detailed viewing of the throne of God.
There is NO rapture mentioned in this
chapter.
This is no
ordinary angel. It is God, the Angel of the
Lord. Rev 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus
Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew
unto his servants things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and signified it
by HIS ANGEL unto his servant John”.
The Angel of
the Lord was the preincarnate Son of God.
Joh_1:18 says, “No man hath seen God (i.e.,
the Father) at any time; the only begotten
Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he
hath declared him.”
Pro_30:4 says, “Who
hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?
who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who
hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath
established all the ends of the earth? what
is his name, and what is his son's name, if
thou canst tell?” God’s son’s
name is Yeshua, Jesus.
This is the angel of
the Lord that appeared to Moses. Exo_3:2,4
says, “And the angel of the LORD
appeared unto him (Moses) in a flame of fire
out of the midst of a bush: and he looked,
and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and
the bush was not consumed....4 And when the
LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God
called unto him out of the midst of the
bush, and said, Moses, Moses.”
If there was
no Rapture, why are the redeemed saints out
of every kindred, and tongue, and people,
and nation present around the throne of God?
Where in
chapter 5 of Revelations, does it say that
the redeemed saints out of every kindred,
tongue, and people, and nation, are present
around the throne of God? It does not. I
think you have mistaken what it says in
verse 11.....
Revelations
5: 11......And I beheld, and I
heard the voice of many angels
round about the throne and
the beasts and the elders: and the number
of them (many angels) was ten thousand
times ten thousand, and thousands of
thousands;
Look at Rev
5:9,10 again. It says, “And they (the
redeemed saints) sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to
open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us (the wise-virgin
saints) to God by thy blood out of every
kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and
priests: and we shall reign on (epi, on or
over) the earth.”
You cannot
imply that "they" are anything other than
the 24 elders and the 4 beasts that are
singing a new song or that "us" is anyone
other than the 24 elders and the 4 beasts.
You have to take it in context of the
surrounding literature. In Revelations 5: 9,
the elders and beasts are singing a new
song. This is evident by the previous verse
8. Notice that they all have vials full of
odours, which are the prayers of
saints. These prayers are not doing the
singing, the beasts and the elders are, but
the saints are included as being redeemed to
God where it says "us", they are included
out of every kindred, and tongue, and
people, and nation.
Psa 149:5-9
says, “Let the saints be joyful in
glory: let them sing aloud upon
their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be
in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in
their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the
heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8
To bind their kings with chains, and their
nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute
upon them the judgment written: this honour
have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.”
The last book in the
Bible is “The Revelation of Jesus
Christ”. It is written as if the
First-Trump Rapture is near, maybe 10
days future. Rev 2:10,11 says, “Fear
none of those things which thou shalt
suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some
of you into prison, that ye may be tried;
and ye shall have tribulation ten days:
be thou faithful unto death, and I will
give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath
an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith
unto the churches”.
The First-Trump Rapture
is “at hand” in the first and last
chapters. Rev 1:3 says, “Blessed
is he that readeth, and they that hear the
words of this prophecy, and keep those
things which are written therein: for the
time is at hand.” Rev 22:10 says, “Seal
not the sayings of the prophecy of this
book: for the time is at hand.”
The
Revelation of Jesus Christ is organized
according to Rev 1:19. It says, “Write the
things which thou hast seen (i.e., the
things before the First-Trump Rapture), and
the things which are (at the time of the
First-Trump Rapture), and the things which
shall be hereafter” (after
the First-Trump Rapture). The Last-Trump
Rapture is seen later, on the day of God’s
Wrath (Rev 6:17, 7:14).
> > Notice here that
the elders had vials which were full of
the prayers of saints. The
singing in verse 9 is coming from the 4
beasts and the four
and twenty elders. Now continue
verse 9...
> > 9...........And
they sung a new song, saying, Thou art
worthy to take the book, and to open the
seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and
hast redeemed us to God by thy
blood out of every kindred, and tongue,
and people, and nation
The pronouns “they” and
“us” in verse 9 refer back to the previous
noun, “saints” (the last word in 5:8, the
chapter and verse divisions were not in the
original), and these saints come out of
every kindred, and tongue, and people, and
nation.
The
pronoun "they" is referring back to the four
beasts and four and twenty elders of verse
8. The beasts and the elders are the subject
matter of verse 8, and the pronoun "us" is
referring back to the noun "prayers". "Of
saints" tells who the prayers are from, an
adjective.
There are many more in
that group than 28 (24 elders and 4 beasts).
“There are 196
countries in the world today.” (www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0932875.html)
Yes, there are! But
they are two "distinct groups"! KINGS
and PRIESTS! or (Firstfruits and Saints) As
stated in:
Revelations
5: 10......And hast made us
unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth.
Referring
to the time of the First-Trump Rapture,
Rev 3:16 says to the lukewarm Laodiceans,
“So then because thou art lukewarm, and
neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out
of my mouth.” They get spewed out of the
Body of Christ at the time of the
First-Trump Rapture, but will be caught up
in the Last-Trump Rapture on the Day of
God’s Wrath.
Those
wise-virgin Philadelphians will not be
spewed out of his mouth at the time of the
First-Trump Rapture. In his Monologue to
the seven churches, Jesus said to the
Philadelphians, “I know thy works: behold,
I have set before thee an open door,
and no man can shut it: for thou hast a
little strength, and hast kept my word,
and hast not denied my name.” (Rev 3:8).
John
is one of the 24 elders, the 12 patriarchs
and 12 apostles of Israel. Rev 4:4 says,
“And round about the throne were four and
twenty seats (lit., thrones): and upon the
seats I saw four and twenty elders
sitting, clothed in white raiment; and
they had on their heads crowns of gold.”
John was seated on his throne with the 12
patriarchs and the other 11 apostles that
were just caught up in the First-Trump
Rapture.
THE
PRINCES (12 PATRIARCHS AND 12 APOSTLES)
SHALL GATHER THEMSELVES TO THEE AT THE
FIRST TRUMPET CALL
Num
10:1-4 says, “And the LORD spake unto
Moses, saying, 2 Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of
silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make
them: that thou mayest use them for the
calling of the assembly, and for
the journeying of the camps. 3 And when
they shall blow with them (i.e., BOTH),
all the assembly shall assemble
themselves to thee at the door of the
tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if
they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the
princes (i.e., 12 patriarchs and 12
apostles of Israel), which are heads of
the thousands of Israel, shall gather
themselves unto thee”.
THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN IN
HEAVEN
Heb
12:22-24 says, “But ye are come unto mount
Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an
innumerable company of angels, 23 To
the general assembly and church of the
firstborn, which are written in
heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and
to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new
covenant”.
REV. 4
> >
Marilyn, this is
obviously an angel that is to show
John things to come later
on.......thus, the word hereafter
is used. John was given the gift of
going into heaven in the spirit and
was shown the throne of God. The
entire chapter 4 of Revelations is a
detailed viewing of the throne of
God. There is NO rapture
mentioned in this chapter.
“COME UP HITHER” IS THE
FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE
Rev 4:1-4 says,
“After this I looked, and, behold, a
door (set before the Philadelphians in
Rev 3:8) was opened in heaven: and the
first voice which I heard was as it were
of a trumpet talking with me; which
said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew
thee things which must be hereafter
(after the First-Trump Rapture, Rev
1;19). 2 And immediately I was (lit.,
became) in the spirit: and, behold, a
throne was set in heaven, and one
(Jesus, who is both Father and Son, John
10:30) sat on the throne. 3 And he that
sat was to look upon like a jasper
(first stone in the breastplate) and a
sardine stone (last stone in the
breastplate, i.e., Jesus is both the
first and the last, Isa 44:6, Rev
22:13): and there was a rainbow (i.e.,
Saturn’s rings, Eze 1:28) round about
the throne (Eze 1:26), in sight like
unto an emerald (Judah’s stone in the
breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion of
the Tribe of Judah). 4 And round about
the throne were four and twenty seats
(thrones): and upon the seats I saw four
and twenty elders sitting, clothed in
white raiment (i.e., given them at the
First-Trump Rapture); and they had on
their heads crowns of gold” (i.e., also
given at the First-Trump Rapture).
Come up hither,
is not referring to the rapture in this
context, it is merely a statement being
said to John to get him to come up here
(in the spirit). The angel wants to show
John something very special, which is
the throne of God. Thats all!
In John_10:30,
Jesus said, “I and my Father are one.”
Isa 44:6 says,
“Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of
Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH)
of hosts; I am the first (YHWH, King of
Israel), and I am the last (YHWH, of
hosts, the redeemer); and beside me
there is no God.”
In Rev 22:13,
Jesus said, “I am Alpha and Omega, the
beginning and the end, the first and
the last.”
God
can be in two places at once, but to
make it easier for mankind to grasp, in
chapter 5, a symbolic lamb representing
Christ is given the little book, the
Title Deed of the Earth.
> > Marilyn,
The wheat harvest (RAPTURE) does
not happen until Revelations 14:
14 !
That is correct.
There are two Raptures, the barley harvest
and the wheat harvest. The 24 elders and
Philadelphian saints are caught up in the
barley harvest (and there is a summer barley
harvest). The 144,000 Israelites and other
Tribulation saints are caught up in the
wheat harvest,probably on Tishri 1, 5776.
The 144,000 Israelites are the only ones
caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture that are
able to sing the NEW SONG. They are out of
one country, not every country in the world
as in Rev 5:9.
THE
FIRSTFRUITS ARE CAUGHT UP IN TWO RAPTURES, THE
FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE AND THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE,
ONE BEFORE THE FALSE PROPHET DEFILES THE TEMPLE,
ONE JUST BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD IS POURED OUT
ON THE DAY OF GOD’S WRATH
Marilyn, the firstfruits are
called firstfruits because they are
taken FIRST! Which means they are taken
in the BARLEY harvest, barley comes before
wheat. They are not split up. We are told who
they are in:
Revelations 14: 4........These
are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins. These are they which
follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These
were redeemed from among men, being
the firstfruits unto God and to
the Lamb.
And........
Revelations 14: 1......And
I looked and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount
Sion, and with him an hundred
forty and four thousand,
having his Father's name written in their
foreheads.
During this reply
to you and JUST now, I think the Lord has
revealed to me who the 2 witnesses are!
The very first place that it mentions an
ascension to heaven in revelations is at 11:
12......And they heard a great voice from
heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And
they ascended up to heaven in a
cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
This is talking about the 2 witnesses
and their dead bodies were left to lie in the
street of the great city. I think the 2
witnesses are the Northern and the Southern
kingdoms of ISRAEL. Broken down into 12 tribes
of 12,000 each. And scattered throughout the
world today. This would explain how they were
killed, in Revelations 11: 7 where the beast
made war against them and kills them. Then they
are seen again with the Lamb in Revelations 14:1
where they appear on mount Sion with the Lamb!
Obviously, they have been resurrected! The first
ones to be taken are the dead in Christ! The
firstfruits! The 144,000 that are killed by the
beast. This is the first ascension mentioned in
revelations to occur, so it would have to be
them!
AT THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE, ALL SAINTS
SING THE NEW SONG
Rev 4:1 says, “After this I looked,
and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
the first voice which I heard was as it were
of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come
up hither.”
Again,
this is not a rapture! Or a resurrection! A door
was meerly opened to John in the SPIRIT to allow
him to go through it to be able to see what he
was shown, the throne of GOD!
Rev
5:8-10 says, “And when he had taken the book,
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell
down before the Lamb, having every one of them
harps, and golden vials full of odours, which
are the prayers of saints. 9 And they (i.e., the
saints, including the 24 elders) sung a NEW
SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast
slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood
out of every kindred, and tongue, and people,
and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God
kings and priests: and we shall reign on the
earth.”
Again,
this was covered earlier. The saints did no
singing. Saints is an adjective in this
sentence, not the noun!
AT
THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE, ONLY THE 144,000
ISRAELITES SING THE NEW SONG
Again,
the 144,000 are NOT taken last! They are the
firstfruits as proven in Revelations 14:4!
Firstfruits are taken in the BARLEY HARVEST!
Rev
14:1-5 says, “I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on
the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty
and four thousand, having his Father's name
written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a
voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters,
and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard
the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3
And they (i.e., the 144,000) sung as it were a
NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four
beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN
THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR
THOUSAND, which were redeemed from the earth. 4
These are they which were not defiled with
women; for they are virgins. These are they
which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men, being the
firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in
their mouth was found no guile: for they are
without fault before the throne of God.”
This part is biblical
and correct!
Psa
149:5-9 says, “Let the saints be joyful in
glory: let them SING aloud upon their beds. 6
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
and a twoedged sword in their hand; 7 To execute
vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon
the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains,
and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To
execute upon them the judgment written: this
honour have ALL HIS SAINTS. Praise ye the LORD.”
The
Last-Trump Rapture is on the Day of God’s Wrath
(probably the Feast of Trumpets, Sept 14, 2015)
(Rev. 6:17, 7:14).
The
WHEAT HARVEST happens in:
Revelations 14:4........And
I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon
the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man,
having on his head a golden crown, and in his
hand a sharp sickle.
15.........And another
angel came out of the temple, crying with a
loud voice to him that sat on the cloud,
Thrust in thy sickle and reap: for the time is
come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the
earth is ripe.
16.........And he that
sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the
earth; and the earth was reaped.
The
LAST HARVEST takes place in revelations 14:
Revelations 14:17..........And
another angel came out of the temple which is
in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18..........And
another angel came out from the alter, which
had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry
to him that had the sharp sickle, gather the
clusters of the vine of the earth; for her
grapes are fully ripe.
19..........And the
angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and
gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it
into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
So,
Marilyn, I respectfully disagree, but that is
only my understanding of the matter. But I think
it is biblical.
PS....God's
wrath does not begin until chapter 16, after the
last gathering of the earth. Chapter 15 tells
about the tribulation saints that got the
victory over the beast. So, the last (rapture)
does not appear to happen at the same time as
the wrath of God. Chronologically, the gathering
comes first, but it does not say how much time
there is until God's wrath begins. Granted, it
will be close.
YBIC
Mike P
Agape,
Marilyn Agee
prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com
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