This is in reply to "Charles" statement that "I am just trying to understand and the only way the rapture could be imminent is the first five seals may already be open and progressing."

 

Dear Charles (and all the Doves);

 

Since 1998 John Tng suffered me to post on the Five Doves.  Over the years I have changed my opinions conerning the rapture due to what I call "progressive revelation", which only means that as I learned more, and understood more, I had to 'adjust' my thinking and beliefs.  But in doing so, I learned how sharing those changing 'opinions & interpretations' could cost one their 'credibility' - because, face it, people just want to know and not have the answer keep changing.....because then they are forced to re-evaluate and re-adjust their thinking & beliefs.  So I stopped posting.  But it didn't mean I stopped studying and searching.  But today when I read Charles' post with the sentence copied above, I knew I had to reply because I know how he feels.  So, Charles, I offer you a brief overview of what I now believe, which, as far as I'm concerned, is finally settled not just in my mind, but in my heart, soul, and spirit.   

 

The SEALS HAVE INDEED BEEN OPENED, but we ARE NOT IN THE 70th WEEK OF DANIEL....AND WE WON'T BE BECAUSE WE WILL BE CALLED HOME BEFORE THAT TIME BEGINS.

 

I'm going to just list a summary of how I understand this and if you are interested in the details of each statement, I will be glad to give you the WHY (scripturally) for why I believe it.  My email address is slvance235@aol.com.

 

1)  We all know the scene at Christ's ascension into heaven....Acts 1:11 > Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. This is what was seen from the EARTHLY PERSPECTIVE. 

 

2)  In Revelation 4, John is viewing the same scene from the HEAVENLY PERSPECTIVE! 

    * Quick review:  In  Rev. 1 John sees the glorified Christ and is given the identity of the 7 candlesticks (churches) and the 7 stars (angels of the churches) in His right hand, and is also given the commission to "shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass" and to  "Write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the things WHICH ARE, and the things WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER;  In Rev, 2 & 3 John records the letters to the 7 churches.

      

3)  Though John was given Revelation years later, Rev. 4 picks up where Christ's ascension is seen from earth....and John is called to come up hither.  When John arrived in the throne room, he described the majestic and awesome scene in Revelation 4 & 5 > the throne, the One seated upon it brilliantly described in the blood-red sardius stone and the sparkling diamond-like jasper, 4 mysterious six-winged living creatures around it, a rainbow, a sea of glass like unto crystal, lamps of fire, lightnings, thunderings, and also a group of 24 figures described as elders.

    *** Identity of the 24 elders: The 24 elders in the throne room are NOT human beings.  They are an angelic priesthood of the Heavenly Temple of which the Levitical priesthood on earth was patterned after.  They are wearing priestly garb of white robes and gold crowns. They serve God in the heavenly temple.   Elders, or "presbuteros" in Greek, means a human being on the earth.  The traditional interpretation is that the 24 elders represent human beings in a resurrected state, and therefore the resurrection/rapture must have already taken place. HOWEVER.....these 24 elders are in heaven (not earth) seated around the throne of God and therefore are not represented as 'human beings on earth.'      

    The heavenly priesthood is said to be in the order of the eternal "Melchizedek priesthood" in the heavenly Temple.  The priesthood of Melchizedek is superior because it required a single sacrifice once and for all (Jesus), while the Levitical priesthood made endless sacrifices. (Heb. 7:27)  This is why King David referred to the future King of kings / Messiah as a "priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." (Psalm 110:1-4.)  Because He sacrificed Himself once and for all. 

    Because the earthly was patterned after the heavenly, scripture shows David received instructions from God and then showed Solomon how to divide the priests and the Levites and how they were to serve:  1 Chronicles 23:2-6 > David assembled all the leaders of Israel, along with the priests and the Levites.The Levites who were thirty years old and up were counted; there were 38,000 men.  David said, “Of these, 24,000 are to direct the work of the Lord’s temple. They were divided into 24 courses according to their assignment; therefore, it seems totally reasonable and scripturally compatible to identify the elders as a "heavenly angelic representation of priests serving the High Priest Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Temple.  That solves the problem of whether they represent the church because if they represented the church, the elders would be in the throne room BEFORE Christ arrives there as the Lamb which had been slain....and BEFORE He even sits down at the right hand of God and takes the scroll and begins opening it's seals. 

     There are other clues to the identity of the 24 elders in the description of their actions in the throne room:

    * the 24 elders were holding golden bowls full of incense which is described as being the prayers of the saints (Rev. 5:8).  If they were human beings they would not be holding golden bowls which contain their own prayers....prayers which serve no purpose since they would already BE in heaven?

    * But because the 24 elders represent an angelic order of priests, it makes perfect sense for them to be holding the golden bowls with the prayers of the saints because we see later that they offer up the prayers as incense before the throne, where the High Priest (Jesus Christ) intercedes before the Father for the saints based on their prayers. 

 

 

4) What John did NOT see in the throne room in Rev. 4 was Jesus.  He wasn't there yet. 

     * Have you ever heard the comparison to watching a ship sail away until it disappears over the horizon and is 'gone' because we can no longer see it.....yet over the horizon others see the ship sailing toward them until it finally arrives on the other shore? Well, that's what I'm saying about Jesus' ascension - there's an earthly perspective and a heavenly perspective. Rev. 4 picks up where Christ's ascension is seen on earth....while John is seeing it as it is happening in heaven. 

 

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!!!!!  It changes everything about how we are to understand Revelation. John was not seeing events as they are taking place 2,000 years later (at the beginning of the 70th Week).....rather, he was shown a vision of the events which took place AT THE TIME OF JESUS' ASCENSION to the chapters to follow and to the events that would happen between the Ascension and the Second Coming! 

    

 

5)  Rev. 5 describes God the Father sitting on the throne holding in His right hand a book sealed with 7 seals.  Verse 2 there is an angel proclaiming with a loud voice who is worthy to open the book and loose the seals ? - and no one was found!....no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.  WHY?  Because at that moment, Jesus was still between earth & heaven in the process of "ascending." Revelation 4 & 5 is "live action.".....it was happening as John saw it happen, not from earth, but in heaven.  (if Jesus had already ascended & arrived in the throne room in chptr. 4 and was the one being worshipped by the elders and 4 beasts, then why was no one found in heaven to open the book?  Just sayin'.)

 

After the search for one worthy to open the scroll and no one was found on earth or in heaven, John begins to weep.  But an elder (one of the angelic priests) says to John: "Weep not: BEHOLD, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the 7 seals thereof."  And John says "I BEHELD, AND, LO, IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE AND OF THE 4 BEASTS, AND IN THE MIDST OF THE ELDERS STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN...." Vs.6  (Funny, He wasn't there a minute ago!  Odd that He wasn't found to be on earth or in heaven when the angel was calling for someone worthy to open the book.  But suddenly - BEHOLD! - He appeared.

And then comes the defining moment in the Kingdom of God:   

    And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne (vs.7)

    And when He had taken the book, the 4 beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints. (vs. 8)

 

* In 5:9 the 24 elders and the four living creatures are singing a "new song" (apparently unto themselves according to the King James Version) which does not make logical sense since angelic entities are not redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ) ESPECIALLY seeing that the four living creatures would not be included in this new song!  So there is a problem.  The problem is the King James version used the word "hemas" (meaning 'us') instead of the word "autous" (meaning 'them.').  Every other translation uses "autous" which renders the pronoun correctly and thus the angelic order of heavenly priests AND the 4 living creatures are NOT singing this new song unto themselves, but unto Jesus and those He redeemed:

                                      Complete Jewish Bible

                                             And they sang a new song,

                          “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals;
                                         because you were slaughtered;
                               at the cost of blood you ransomed for God
                 persons from every tribe, language, people and nation.
                              You made them into a kingdom for God to rule,
                                                 cohanim to serve him;
                                       and they will rule over the earth.”

       

This further shows that the elders are not the church....they are angelic priests in the heavenly temple ministering on behalf of the saints before God; and they are celebrating the New Covenant that Christ had accomplished through His redeeming work and taking His rightful place in the throne room after He ascended and prepares to open the seals......and so ends chapter 5.

 

* Do you see that these things happened IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHRIST'S ASCENSION......that it wasn't happening some 2,000 years later when the 70th Week of Daniel begins?  Thousands of years did not pass between His sitting down at the right hand of God the Father, taking the scroll, and opening the first seal.  Revelation 4 & 5 is the heavenly perspective John sees of when Christ ascended to His position as HIGH PRIEST IN THE HEAVENLY TEMPLE and what He immediately began to do! 

 

6)  Revelation 6 - The Lamb begins opening the seals.  How can this be right after He ascends to heaven?  Well, the Book of Revelation is a chronological Book.  With the opening of the seals, we see the chronological order of history from the time of Christ's ascension until His Second Coming.  Therefore, we can understand the seals in the order they are opened.  The first 4 seals are symbolic of spiritual entities that are sent out to accomplish God's will on earth.  His ultimate purpose in opening the seals and releasing these spiritual entitites immediately when He arrives in Heaven is to bring about the redemption of His creation according to His Plan.  Spiritually He had already accomplished it - but there would be a couple of thousand years to ESTABLISH it.   Christ's return was never "imminent" because all of the events throughout history would ultimately culminate in His return at an Appointed Time, as it was written from the foundation of the world.    

    

    The First Seal - rider on the white horse, went forth conquering and to conquer.  Because it is symbolic of a spiritual force, it represents the spirit of antichrist (not a person, but that the spirit of antichrist was already in the world (conquering) - deceivers, false teachers- and to conquer, or never to 'get better' but to get worse (as in birthing pains.)

    

    The Second Seal - red horse, power to take peace from the earth & kill one another.  Symbolic of the spirit of violence and bloodshed.  Numerous wars, not just "normal violence" but a demonic kind of violence that causes people to murder without conscience, terrorize, torture, etc.  It was seen in the crusades and inquisitions.  Senseless killing, ethnic cleansing, brutal and merciless wars and murdering.  Again - the beginning of the birth pains.

 

    The Third Seal - black horse whose rider held a pair of balances. These balances represent not just scales with which to measure or ration food, but also the burden that comes from just trying to stay alive regarding such things as the price of food, fuel, goods, government controlling more and more of our money, taxes, the controls on supply & demand, economic oppression, debt,....and the decline of empires which faired well for sometime and then fell by the wayside while men  are seemingly unable to learn from history and thus are doomed to repeat it.  The balances represent injustice and inequity.....and behind it is greed and the desire for power and control.

 

    The Fourth Seal - a pale horse whose rider was Death, and Hell followed with him.  The spirit of death and hell was given power to kill a fourth of the earth with sword, hunger, and beasts.  Again we see violence, murder, wars, famine (hunger).  When the scripture says "to kill with death", 'disease' is actually "death" or "thanatos" in Greek.  And we know that disease and plagues have resulted in devastation on earth over the centuries.

 

    The Fifth Seal - John sees under the altar that was before the throne of God the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?   Tradition identifies these souls under the altar as martyrs during the tribulation.  But if that is true, they are pretty impatient since they crying "How long before you avenge us?"  After all, there have been martyrs for the Word of God since Stephen, the first martyr, was stoned for his testimony.  Down through the ages there have been millions killed for their Faith.  We have a hard time embracing this fact because we have had so little persecution ourselves.  But these who died for their Faith are not the tribulation saints....they are "saints who endured tribulation and martyrdom while in this world throughout the time since Christ's Ascension.  I imagine with the opening of the fifth seal, Jesus is showing us how the spirits of the previous seals that were sent out or released into the world culminated in bringing about the deaths of all these souls under God's altar.

    These saints under the altar are given white robes and told to rest for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed, as they were, should be fulfilled.  The innocent blood of these souls cried out to God from the earth and their souls are resting under His altar....perhaps they have been waiting for hundreds of years for their deaths to be avenged.  But there is a full number to be reached.  The full number of martyrs who died for their Fatih would have to wait until the 70th Week tribulation martyrs are killed as they were, that the full number is fulfilled.  This is a group who is separate from those who are resurrected and raptured.  But as seen in Rev. 6:9-11, God has already given these souls under the altar their white robes because of their are righteous even though they must wait until the full number of their brethren are killed like they were before they are resurrected.

    

Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24 of ALL the events that would happen throughout history and they are all found within the first 5 seals, which he opened right after His ascension to heaven.  He was breaking the seals and allowing these things to run their course, for transgression and sin and iniquity to fill itself up as these things would wax worse and worse down through the ages, culminating in such abominable desolations that were determined until the end when He would return to "finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to annoint the most Holy. (Dan.9:24)  

 

But now we arrive at the 6th Seal......and a great earthquake.  Yes, this is the great earthquake that will accompany the resurrection and rapture.  There is much detail and so I will end this post for now.  The first five seals were opened at the time Christ ascended and sat down at the right hand of God the Father just as the apostle John witnessed and recorded.  The time had come when the birth pains started.  with each seal that was opened, the pain grew worse.  But as with birthing labor, the pains were necessary to culminate in birth.  With the opening of the 6th seal the TRANSITION phase begins.  The church age is over.  It is time for God to deal with His people again.  He had broken off the some of the natural branches of the Olive Tree and grafted in branches from a wild olive tree (the church).  After the 6th Seal it is time to graft the natural branches back in.  When you graft branches you have to cut them....and thus will begin the last, the final, 70th Week of Daniel. 

 

The great worldwide earthquake at the beginning of the 6th Seal shows the mighty power of the resurrection of believers all over the world from the time of Adam.  Because of the worldwide devastation this will bring, the "missing people" (who were changed from mortal to immortal and are snatched up) the world will not miss us.  We will simply be among the missing. 

 

This is all for now.  This new understanding I have is based on studying the information in the books by David W. Lowe, THEN HIS VOICE SHOOK THE EARTH and EARTHQUAKE RESURRECTION.

I have barely scratched the surface, still studying, still completely amazed at how the problems with the traditional view fall away under David's  challenge to the way we always thought.  I urge you to read it for yourself and test it, try it, see if it speaks to your spirit as it did mine.  I have peace in knowing how and why I understand now that I never had before. 

Shalom....Until,

Sherry Vance~