RE: GM / Pineman -
When did Jesus become Messiah and When was Messiah Cut
Off?
First regarding
the paragraph:
One quite old school
of thought holds that Jesus became Messiah when He
was baptized at the start of His ministry.
Three and a half years later He was cut off from
God the Father when He was crucified with the sins
of the world. That leaves three and a
half years in the future to be fulfilled at
some unknown time. Counting backward 62
weeks plus 7 weeks of solar years from 30 AD
brings us to a year a Persian King made a
proclamation taken as fulfilling prophecy.
The last sentence
should have had after "7 weeks" the phrase, "plus
another half a week". Which would have made the
whole paragraph read like:
One quite old school of
thought holds that Jesus became Messiah when He was
baptized at the start of His ministry. Three
and a half years later He was cut off from God the
Father when He was crucified with the sins of the
world. That leaves three and a half
years in the future to be fulfilled at some
unknown time. Counting backward 62
weeks plus 7 weeks plus another half a
week of solar years from 30 AD brings us
to a year a Persian King made a proclamation taken
as fulfilling prophecy.
Hopefully this did
not cause any confusion.
----------------
Also, I was
curious whether I had planted the seed to where anyone was
going to challenge my contention of using 360-day
years instead of solar or Gregorian or Hebrew
years regarding the following statement made near the end
of my post. Many of us would presume that
Hebrew years would be the most justifiable of the three.
Subtracting two and a half 360-day
years which is 900 days from September 23, 2015 brings
us to April 6, 2013.
If one does use
solar or Gregorian or Hebrew it leads to quite
interesting results. Subtracting 2 1/2 solar years
brings us to March 23, 2013. Subtracting 2
1/2 Gregorian years by the month also brings us to
March 23, 2013. Subtracting 2 1/2 Hebrew years from
September 23, 2015, which is Tishri 10, brings us to Nisan
10 which is March 21, 2013. So much pointing to this
exact same time period.
But can using
Hebrew years be justified? Since there were no posts
on 5Doves today, thought I'd post now
my expected reply.
Okay, first
covering some ground.
1. I can
justify using 360-day years for the 7 weeks of Daniel 9
leading up to the second coming of Messiah based on His
first coming. The 62 weeks of
Daniel leading up to Messiah at His conception in 5
BC had to be in 360-day years because only that
will take us back to Nehemiah's commandment to
build Jerusalem. It doesn't work with solar or
modern Hebrew years.
2. I also
have confirmation going the other way from His conception
in 5 BC. Adding the "two day" dispensation of Grace
of Man's "week" on planet Earth which separates the 62
weeks of Daniel from the 7 weeks of Daniel in solar or
Hebrew years brings one to 1996 AD. Only by using
360-day years will one arrive at 1967 AD.
However, the 2 1/2
"times" are not a listed part of this timeline nor is
the same terminology used. In fact the period of
time represented by "time", "times" and "half a time"
only occurs twice in the Bible, once in Daniel and once in
Revelation. While the substituting the similar
phrase "dividing of times" for "half a time" only
occurs once in the Bible, that being in the book of
Daniel. They are listed chronologically below along
with the Strong's numbers.
As one will
note, in all three verses the same word for "time" and
"times" is used in both the Hebrew and in the Greek, again
confirming the count is one time plus one time plus a half
a time for a total of two and a half times. Daniel
7:25 and Rev 12:14 have been taken as speaking of the same
period of time, the Great Tribulation.
As shown in Daniel
7:25, the tribulation saints are worn out by the horn that
arises after the ten horns that come after the 4th kingdom
of the Roman Empire. This horn is described
as having a more stout look than his fellows.
As shown in
Revelation 12:14, the Bride of Christ escapes from the
serpent in what we can interpret as the Rapture during
what we take as the same 2 1/2 years as Daniel 7:25.
Now sandwiched
between these two verses is a verse that appears to speak
of a different period of time. This is in the last
chapter of Daniel after Daniel is told to seal the book.
But thou, O
Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to
the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and
knowledge shall be increased. Daniel
12:4
This vision in
Daniel 12:7 is believed to have taken place shortly before
Daniel's death. Daniel is believed to have
died in 534 BC.
The man clothed in
linen asks the question regarding a length of time.
And one said
to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters
of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these
wonders? Daniel 9:26
And in the next
verse we are told the end of this period of time is when
the POWER of the holy people is no longer scattered.
And I heard
the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of
the river, when he held up his right hand and his left
hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever
that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when
he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the
holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Daniel 9:27
So, 2.5 years
being a "time" is not nearly enough time to account from
534 BC to when the POWER of Daniel's people was no longer
scattered. Instead, let's look at using a
"time" as 1,000 years from God's reference point.
But, beloved,
be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with
the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as
one day. II Peter 3:8
Now adding 2,500 360-days to 534 BC
we have -534 + 1(because there is no zero year)
+ 2500*360/365.2422 (which is 2464 solar years) = 1931
AD.
I know of no
event in 1931 AD which points to the POWER of the holy
people no longer being scattered. In fact this was
right before World War II when the Jews were POWERLESS to
prevent the Holocaust.
Well then, let's
try Hebrew years. Adding 2,500 Hebrew year to 534 BC
we have -534 + 1 + 2500 = 1967 AD. Looks like a
direct hit. On June 6, 1967 AD the Jewish people in
the tiny nation of Israel found themselves about to be
invaded on several fronts. In a preemptive strike,
the Jewish people not only kept the invading armies from
wiping out their country but recovered new ground
including Jerusalem in the 6 day war.
Which means we are
quite justified to interpret "times" as Hebrew years and
not 360-day years. This brings us then to March
21st, 2013 for the beginning of the fulfillment of Daniel
7:25 and Revelation 12:14.
Are we finally at
the end of our watching? Is this finally Valerie's
"Sky Blue 21"? We don't have long to wait!
-----------------
Just for
information, the following table had been constructed a
while back to show the effect on the starting day for a
1260 day Great Tribulation based on an end date of
September 23, 2015 and various number of days shortened,
in increments of 45 days. The start of the shortened
days would correspond to the day it is believed an
object from space will hit the earth and open up what is
called the "bottomless pit" in the book of
Revelation.
|
Days
Shortened |
|
9/23/2015 |
Start
Shortened |
| 1260 |
0 |
0 |
4/11/2012 |
9/23/2015 |
| 1215 |
45 |
1 |
4/26/2012 |
8/24/2015 |
| 1170 |
90 |
2 |
5/11/2012 |
7/25/2015 |
| 1125 |
135 |
3 |
5/26/2012 |
6/25/2015 |
| 1080 |
180 |
4 |
6/10/2012 |
5/26/2015 |
| 1035 |
225 |
5 |
6/25/2012 |
4/26/2015 |
| 990 |
270 |
6 |
7/10/2012 |
3/27/2015 |
| 945 |
315 |
7 |
7/25/2012 |
2/25/2015 |
| 900 |
360 |
8 |
8/9/2012 |
1/26/2015 |
| 855 |
405 |
9 |
8/24/2012 |
12/27/2014 |
| 810 |
450 |
10 |
9/8/2012 |
11/27/2014 |
| 765 |
495 |
11 |
9/23/2012 |
10/28/2014 |
| 720 |
540 |
12 |
10/8/2012 |
9/28/2014 |
| 675 |
585 |
13 |
10/23/2012 |
8/29/2014 |
| 630 |
630 |
14 |
11/7/2012 |
7/30/2014 |
| 585 |
675 |
15 |
11/22/2012 |
6/30/2014 |
| 540 |
720 |
16 |
12/7/2012 |
5/31/2014 |
| 495 |
765 |
17 |
12/22/2012 |
5/1/2014 |
| 450 |
810 |
18 |
1/6/2013 |
4/1/2014 |
| 405 |
855 |
19 |
1/21/2013 |
3/2/2014 |
| 360 |
900 |
20 |
2/5/2013 |
1/31/2014 |
| 315 |
945 |
21 |
2/20/2013 |
1/1/2014 |
| 270 |
990 |
22 |
3/7/2013 |
12/2/2013 |
| 225 |
1035 |
23 |
3/22/2013 |
11/2/2013 |
| 180 |
1080 |
24 |
4/6/2013 |
10/3/2013 |
| 135 |
1125 |
25 |
4/21/2013 |
9/3/2013 |
| 90 |
1170 |
26 |
5/6/2013 |
8/4/2013 |
| 45 |
1215 |
27 |
5/21/2013 |
7/5/2013 |
| 0 |
1260 |
28 |
6/5/2013 |
6/5/2013 |
So,
if the start is 3/22/2013, that would mean
there were 1035 shortened days and 225 non-shortened
days and the object from space would hit the
earth on November 2, 2013.
Regardless,
let's keep looking up and praising the Lord in
whatever our circumstances.
- Shalom
Ted Porter