From: Marilyn Agee
Re: posts at http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/whatisthemidtribulationrapture.cfm
Hi:
> The pre-trib rapture is very much supported by scripture, and it's the > Blessed Hope for those who are born again believers in Jesus Christ. > Read 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1st Corinthians 15: 51-52. If those > passages of scripture are not about a pre-trib rapture, then what do > they describe?
Most of my life, I thought the first Rapture would be Pre-Trib, until we seemed to already be in the first part of the Tribulation. The Rapture did not happen when I thought it would.
Always willing for the Bible to be right and me wrong, I had to change my view. I had to reread the scriptures with new eyes. I had to let the Scriptures tell me, and not let the Pre-Trib teachers coming out of Dallas Theological Seminary sway me.
THERE ARE TWO RAPTURES
I already knew that there were two Raptures, a First-Trump Rapture and a Last-Trump Rapture for the Tribulation saints. Many people do not recognize that I Thess 4:13-18 and I Cor 15:51-54 are not talking about the same thing. Let's look at those scriptures again.
THERE ARE RANKS IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION
I Cor 15:21-23 says, "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 BUT every man in his own order (tagmati, RANK): Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD they that are Christ's at his coming."
THERE ARE THREE RANKS OF FIRSTFRUITS
1. CHRIST
1Co 15:20-23 says, "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept."
2. THE WISE VIRGINS
Jas_1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures."
3. THE FOOLISH VIRGINS, THE 144,000 ISRAELITES, AND OTHER TRIBULATION SAINTS, TOO MANY TO NUMBER
Rev_14:1-4 says, "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb".
Rev 7:9 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".
IN THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE, BELIEVERS ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, BUT ARE NOT YET IMMORTAL
1Th 4:13-18 says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren (i.e., wise-virgin believers), concerning them (i.e., the dead in Christ) which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (phthano, precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo, be taken up by force) together (hama, at the same time) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we (i.e., wise-virgin believers) ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
IN THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE, TRIBULATION BELIEVERS ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND THEN ALL BELIEVERS OF BOTH RAPTURES ARE MADE IMMORTAL
1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We (i.e., Paul and the other believers) shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
THE ARRANGEMENT OF THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST
The Revelation is arranged around the first Rapture, around Rev 4:1. Verse 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the first Rapture), and the things which are (i.e., at the time of the first Rapture, Rev 4:1), and the things which shall be hereafter" (after the first Rapture).
Rev 4:1-4 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (i.e., at the first Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER. (i.e., after the first Rapture). 2 And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one (Christ) sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (first stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (last stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the first, LORD of the Old Testament, and the last, Lord of the New Testament, Isa 44:6): and there was a rainbow (i.e., Saturn's ring system) round about the throne (of the only God/man, on Saturn that has brightness all around, Eze 1:1,26-28), in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah). 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (lit., thrones): and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders (i.e., 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles of Israel, including John) sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."
MY PRESENT THOUGHTS ABOUT THE TIMING OF THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE
I now think the First-Trump Rapture will be on a Sunday near Mid-Trib, and the Last-Trump Rapture will be on Monday, the Day of God's Wrath that ends the Great Tribulation, the shortened last part of the 7-year Tribulation, Monday, Tishri 1, 5776, the Feast of Trumpets.
WHY SUNDAY FOR THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE?
In the Preview of the Rapture, Rev 1:9-11 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on THE LORD'S DAY (i.e., Sunday), and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last".
It looks like as soon as Satan and his angels are cast down from Heaven, we will be caught up to Heaven, hopefully on SUNDAY, May 5, 2013. That will be Iyar 25, 5773, Ascension Day, and the Eastern Orthodox Easter. It will probably be preceded by the Holy Fire in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Holy Saturday, the day before the Orthodox Easter.
WHY MONDAY FOR THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE?
On Resurrection Day, SUNDAY, after Jesus returned from taking the dead in Christ to Heaven, he was seen by all the apostles except Thomas Didymus. Thomas would not believe unless he could see Jesus.
Thomas believed eight days later, on MONDAY. He said, "My Lord and my God" on Monday. I think he represented the Tribulation saints then. I think the Last-Trump Rapture will be on the Feast of Trumpets Tishri 1, 5776, MONDAY, September 14, 2015.
Joh 20:19-29 says, "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week (SUNDAY), when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost". 24 "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And AFTER EIGHT DAYS (i.e., on MONDAY) again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the DOORS BEING SHUT, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast SEEN ME, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
The Tribulation saints will be able to see Jesus in the sky on the Day of God's Wrath. It is the Sign of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:3 says, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, and of the end of the world (aion, age)?"
Mat_24:30,31 says, "And then (tote, at that time) shall appear THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and then (tote, at that time) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."
These gathered from one end of heaven to the other were previously caught up to Heaven in the First-Trump Rapture, which is not in the winter or on Saturday.
Mat 24:20,21 says, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation".
Mat 24:32-34 says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., no more than 19, as Israel was in 1967), and putteth forth leaves (Gaza Strip, Sinai, Golan Heights and West Bank), ye know that summer is nigh (the Six-Day War started June 5; summer started June 21): 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the end of the Age) is near, even at the DOORS (i.e., the two Raptures, the open door in Rev 3:8 represents the first Rapture). 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things (i.e., end-of-the-age events) be fulfilled."
A generation is 48.33 years (Mt 1:17). 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33. I think the Last-Trump Rapture will be on Monday, Sept 14, 2015, the Feast of Trumpets, the end of this age. That day is also the Day of God's Wrath. That Rapture will come after the Day of God's wrath has come (Rev 6:17), but before God's Wrath hits Earth (Rev 7:14, 8:1f).
Mar 13:23-27 says, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (i.e., as in Rev 6:12), 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then (tote, at that time) shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then (tote, at that time) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (i.e., the Last-Trump Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those previously caught up in the First-Trump Rapture).
Act_28:11 says, "And after three months (i.e., winter) we departed in a ship of Alexandria (which means protector of men), which had wintered in the isle, whose sign was Castor and Pollux."
Castor and Pollux are two stars in Gemini, which stands for the Bride and Bridegroom sitting together in heavenly places.
MY QUESTIONS NOW
1. Will the number of wise-virgin Philadelphian saints equal the number of fallen angels as Israel did at one point in their history?
Deu_1:10 says, "The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude."
2. Will we take their jobs in the government of God as Satan enters into the False Prophet on Earth?
Rev 6:13 says, "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."
Rev 12:4 says, "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth".
> One problem with the mid-tribulation rapture timing view is that it > believes that the church will go through the Tribulation period for > three and a half years but be removed before the great tribulation > starts. This would assume that the church will undergo some of God's > wrath but not the worst of it. This is completely contradictory to the > rest of the Bible. God has never once poured out his wrath on the > righteous. This also flies in the face of the fact that the entire > Tribulation period is the wrath of God, not just the last half. The > mid-tribulationist will often try to confuse when the wrath of God > starts. As we showed in a previous article the two sided scroll in > Revelation is ALWAYS a sign of wrath in the Bible. The scroll > encompasses as the judgments of Revelation which are the seal, trumpet, > and bowl judgments. so there is no sound and theological way to conclude > that the church will go through some of the wrath or God, but not the > worst of it. That is simply not correct.
The entire Tribulation is not the wrath of God. That comes after the sixth seal is broken. The first time the word "wrath" appears in Revelation is Rev_6:16,17. It says, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev_6:17 For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
> Another foundational problem with the mid-tribulation rapture timing > view is that it tries to say that the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 > Corinthians 15:52 is the same "trumpet" mentioned in Revelation 11:15. > The fact is the last trumpet mentioned in Revelation 11:15 is the last > in a series of trumpets, but it is not chronologically the last trumpet > as Matthew 24:31 mentions a trumpet at the commencement of Christ's > kingdom. Further, the trumpet describing the rapture in 1 Thessalonians > 4:16 is a trumpet call of God to gather his elect, whereas the trumpet > call of Revelation 11:15 is one that is a foretelling of judgment. The > purpose of these trumpet calls is different and therefore they are not > the same.
The "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not the same "trumpet" mentioned in Revelation 11:15. The trumpet at the time of each Rapture is "the trump of God", as in I Th 4:16.
1Th 4:16 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God".
The Last-Trump Rapture takes place before the seven trumpets are given to the seven angels. Rev 6:12,17 and 7:14 show that the Last-Trump Rapture takes place before the 7 trumpets are given to the 7 angels in Rev 8.
Rev 6:12 says, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood".
Rev 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Rev 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
Num 10:1-4 says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. 3 And when they shall blow with them (i.e., both), ALL THE ASSEMBLY shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (i.e., 12 of the 24 elders in Rev 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."
The 24 elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles of Israel) are in Heaven right after the First-Trump Rapture (Rev 4:1-4). John is one of them.
Heb 12:22-23 says, "But ye (i.e., Tribulation saints) are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant".
The silence is in both Heaven and Earth while the judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ.''
Hab_2:20 says, "the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him."
> Further, the scriptures from 1 Thessalonians 5:9 tell us that the church > is not destined to wrath. This is because the church has been made > righteous by grace through faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ > on the Cross. God never pours out wrath on the righteous. And to saw > that we would experience wrath is to contradict God's ways and > character. So, this is another reason why the mid-tribulation rapture > timing view fails the test of sound and logical analysis. The > mid-tribulationist tries to say that only the bowl judgments of > Revelation are the wrath of God but this flies in the face of the fact > that all the judgments whether they are seals, trumpets, or bowls are > all interconnected. By this we mean that one series of judgments > introduces the next series of judgments. The seventh seal introduces the > first trumpet and the seven trumpet introduces the first bowl. There is > no logical theological way to set aside one series of judgments as being > separate from the others. Especially when we have determined that the > entire seven year Tribulation period is the wrath of God.
You are right in that one series introduces the next. The 7 trumpets come out of the 7th seal. The 7 bowls or vials of wrath come out of the 7th trumpet.
However, the First-Trump Rapture takes place in Rev 4:1 before Christ is given the seven-sealed book in Rev 5:7. The Last-Trump Rapture takes place by Rev 7:14 before Christ is seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Rev 8. Therefore, the seals are not God's judgment. The trumpets and vials are his judgment and his wrath. The trumpets seem to be the initial result of judgment, and the vials the entire judgment after having more time to develop.
The entire seven-year Tribulation is not the Wrath of God. I think the Wrath of God will hit Earth on the Feast of Trumpets, probably Monday, Sept 14, 2015.
The following are the only verses in which the wrath of God is mentioned. Nothing before Rev 6:16,17 is the wrath of God.
Rev_6:16 says, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev_6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev_11:18 says, "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev_12:12 says, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time (i.e., the shortened Great Tribulation).
Rev_14:8 says, "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev_14:10 says, "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev_14:19 says, "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev_15:1 says, "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."
> In summary the mid-tribulation rapture timing view is not sound and > biblical. The only view that is sound and takes in consideration of the > entire "big picture" of Bible prophecy is the pre-tribulation rapture > timing view that places the rapture before the terrible Tribulation > period and the wrath of God.
Even at Mid-Trib, the First-Trump Rapture is before the wrath of God. Both Raptures are before the wrath of God, but the Last-Trump Rapture is on the same day as the Wrath of God. The Tribulation saints are seen in heaven in Rev 7:14, before the 7 trumpets are given to the seven angels in Rev 8.
Agape,
Marilyn Agee
mjagee@verizon.net
prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com
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Feb 3, 2013 - 1:02PM
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QuoteReply
Re: Where Was Their Pre-Trib Rapture
...The pre-trib rapture is very much supported by scripture, and it's the Blessed Hope for those who are born again believers in Jesus Christ. Read 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1st Corinthians 15: 51-52. If those passages of scripture are not about a pre-trib rapture, then what do they describe?...
---
http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/whatisthemidtribulationrapture.cfm
One problem with the mid-tribulation rapture timing view is that it believes that the church will go through the Tribulation period for three and a half years but be removed before the great tribulation starts. This would assume that the church will undergo some of God's wrath but not the worst of it. This is completely contradictory to the rest of the Bible. God has never once poured out his wrath on the righteous. This also flies in the face of the fact that the entire Tribulation period is the wrath of God, not just the last half. The mid-tribulationist will often try to confuse when the wrath of God starts. As we showed in a previous article the two sided scroll in Revelation is ALWAYS a sign of wrath in the Bible. The scroll encompasses as the judgments of Revelation which are the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments. so there is no sound and theological way to conclude that the church will go through some of the wrath or God, but not the worst of it. That is simply not correct.
Another foundational problem with the mid-tribulation rapture timing view is that it tries to say that the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the same "trumpet" mentioned in Revelation 11:15. The fact is the last trumpet mentioned in Revelation 11:15 is the last in a series of trumpets, but it is not chronologically the last trumpet as Matthew 24:31 mentions a trumpet at the commencement of Christ's kingdom. Further, the trumpet describing the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is a trumpet call of God to gather his elect, whereas the trumpet call of Revelation 11:15 is one that is a foretelling of judgment. The purpose of these trumpet calls is different and therefore they are not the same.
Further, the scriptures from 1 Thessalonians 5:9 tell us that the church is not destined to wrath. This is because the church has been made righteous by grace through faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. God never pours out wrath on the righteous. And to saw that we would experience wrath is to contradict God's ways and character. So, this is another reason why the mid-tribulation rapture timing view fails the test of sound and logical analysis. The mid-tribulationist tries to say that only the bowl judgments of Revelation are the wrath of God but this flies in the face of the fact that all the judgments whether they are seals, trumpets, or bowls are all interconnected. By this we mean that one series of judgments introduces the next series of judgments. The seventh seal introduces the first trumpet and the seven trumpet introduces the first bowl. There is no logical theological way to set aside one series of judgments as being separate from the others. Especially when we have determined that the entire seven year Tribulation period is the wrath of God.
In summary the mid-tribulation rapture timing view is not sound and biblical. The only view that is sound and takes in consideration of the entire "big picture" of Bible prophecy is the pre-tribulation rapture timing view that places the rapture before the terrible Tribulation period and the wrath of God. I hope this article has been helpful to you in understanding the truth taught in the Bible.
God bless.