Marilyn,
 
I can see from reading your post       http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2012/marilyna1217-1.htm
 that you dedicated a lot of time and study into writing it. You shared so much with us. For one your age (84 years young) to type all night long as you described is a real sacrifice for you and such a blessing for us. Thank you for your dedication to your study of God's Holy Word and the time and effort that you put into this article and the others you have written.
 
For anyone out there that may be reading this, Marilyn and I have been exchanging our views (several posts back and forth) on the identity of the antichrist, where he comes form, the rapture of the church, how many raptures there are, where Marilyn believes heaven is and a few other things. Marilyn and I seem to have some loving disagreements as to when the rapture happens, how many raptures, which group of kings the antichrist comes out of, the mystery of the wise and foolish virgins, the understanding of the new song sung in Rev.5, and other things.
 
Marilyn believes that the rapture happens in Rev.4 before any seals are opened. She believes that the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 represent two different raptures of the gentiles happening at two different times. She believes that we are raptured in Rev.4 due to a verse that shows up in Rev.5 concerning people from every tribe, tongue and nation being mentioned there and the next verse which speaks of the redeemed being kings and priests that will reign on the earth. And she doesn't believe that the rapture could happen later at the sixth seal because that would put the seals out of order in their opening. All these beliefs that Marilyn has are also shared by millions of other bible and prophecy followers so she is in good company.......or is she?
 
I have a completely different perspective on all of these views that I believe makes sense and clears up a lot of muddy water concerning these topics.
 
Lets start with the five wise and five foolish virgins spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 25.......
 
These wise or foolish virgins are not referring to we the "gentiles" at all. Jesus in Matthew 25 was speaking to Jews and about Jews in this passage of the wise and foolish virgins. The gentile church hadn't even been established yet when Jesus had this discussion among Jews. It has nothing to do with we gentiles but what happens to the Jews in the latter times. So this in my mind eliminates any two rapture scenarios concerning the gentiles.
 
And to explain the whole rapture scenario and why it doesn't happen in Rev.4 and to explain what our loving God, our Sheppard / Intercessor has done for us in the 20 centuries since John was called to heaven to witness the events of these past 20 centuries I will copy below an article I wrote last spring to Doves.
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Doves,
 
The seven seals that are opened by Jesus one by one...... are not judgments.... as most believe, but are or were interventions for the benefit of Jesus' church throughout the last 2000+ years. The seven seal openings do not all happen in the latter end time years as most believe but have been going on throughout the past 2000+ years. Let me explain my beliefs...........
 
John the apostle who we call John the revelator was (in the spirit) taken to heaven from an island where he was imprisoned in approximately 90AD.
While in heaven John witnessed a live "play" or a "viewing" or a "movie" if you will of the history of Christ's church from its inception to its conclusion as if he had been present the whole 2000+ years. John chronicled this viewing into the last book of the bible called the "Book of Revelation" or better termed the Book of Revelations (plural) because he was shown multiple revelations spanning multiple centuries.
 
When we read Rev.5 we see that an angel proclaimed that no one in heaven....on earth.... or under the earth was found worthy to open the seven seals and read the scroll that described events that were to happen during the 2000+ years from the start of John's vision in 90AD until the opening of the last seal.
 
This made John the Revelator extremely sad.
 
Rev.5:4 says that John "wept much" that no one was found worthy to open the seals or read the text of the scroll. If these seals were judgments as most believe then why would John be so distraught and upset that no one could be found to dispense the judgments of them? It doesn't make any sense!!
 
There were lots of Satan's troops that were in heaven... on the earth.... and imprisoned under the earth that could dispense judgments....if the seals were indeed judgments. But they were not judgments.......they were interventions.... and there had to be someone holy and worthy to be qualified to intervene and literally change history.
 
One can only believe that John was extremely exuberant when Jesus the sacrificial lamb stepped forward in the throne room of heaven and took the scroll from God the Father who sat on the throne.(This could have happened as early as 90AD) This resulted in an joyous outburst by the witnesses of this event that could probably be heard throughout the cosmos. The four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before Jesus and broke out in song singing.......
 
"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For you were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth."
 
Then millions of angels proclaimed with a loud voice........
 
"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
 
And to make the joyous cosmic outburst complete, every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea proclaimed.........
 
"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever."
 
Now....do you really believe that all these witnesses of this event would be this excited if the seven seals and the scroll contained horrible judgments like what most people portray in the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse"? Definitely not.......
 
But the witnesses of this event in the throne room of heaven were beside themselves with joy and extremely elated that someone was found worthy to intervene on behalf of Christ's fledgling church that He started while on earth. A church that would be under constant attack by the usurper of this earth.... Satan.
 
Only Jesus was found worthy to intervene on His church's behalf.... from John's vision in 90AD until the present time. And it was Jesus' direct interventions by opening of the seven seals that has saved His church from eradication during these 2000+ years. He intervened for us during this 2000 year period as He intervened for His chosen people the Jews during the Old Testament days.
 
So don't look for the four horsemen to ride any time soon.......these first four seals have already been opened and I believe the fifth has been opened as well.
 
Let's look at the first four seals to see when Jesus intervened on our behalf from 90AD until the present.
 
Seal 1.....And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
There was a time in the last 2000 years that Satan was winning and Christ's church was in jeopardy of being eradicated but Jesus intervened at the first seal. In the Middle Ages the Roman Catholic Church under the Vatican and the papal popes murdered untold millions of true Christians and Jews that would not bow to the demonic authority of Rome. (Satan was winning the battle)This went on for centuries until Jesus intervened by opening the first seal and allowing Napoleon Bonaparte to conquer Europe and put an end to the power of the papal states.... and then the slaughter ended. And yes, Napoleon was famous for riding a white horse. He was the conqueror of Europe (crown) and was a great military man (bow).
 
Seal 2....And another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
There was another time in the last 2000 years that Christ's church, the Jews and the whole earth was in jeopardy of being destroyed. Again I believe that Jesus intervened and oversaw the happenings of this period (this seal) to insure the survival of the Jews, His Church and the earth in general. The period I speak of is World War II. (Satan was winning again) Germany under the demonic Nazis were hell bent on the eradication of the Jews and true Christians. They rolled over Europe and North Africa like a plague. They formed a pact with Japan to conquer the entire world and in the process started a world war and took peace from the earth. The German's were on the verge of perfecting the first nuclear bomb (great sword) which would have given the planet to Satan. But Jesus was there to oversee this period, this second seal, to prevent this from occurring. I believe He delayed Germany and advanced America with the building of the hydrogen bomb which again saved the Jews, the true Christians and the world from Satan's control. Remember....we do not fight flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. So we are badly outnumbered and periodically Jesus has to intervene on our behalf or the bad guys would win....hence seal two.
 
Seal 3....So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.
I believe this seal speaks to the economic factors of the planet. If you are like me you can't understand how the whole deck of economic cards has not completely fallen. Almost every country on the planet is way way way beyond bankrupt. The greed and outright monetary stealing (lawlessness) that is going on with no consequences is unbelievable. Satan is very pleased. What is preventing the complete economic collapse resulting in chaos and anarchy? I believe Jesus is, through His intervention with the third seal. Why? maybe because the fullness of the church is not complete. It doesn't matter how broke the planet is, people still just want to party..party..party. Hence...do not harm the oil and the wine.
 
Seal 4...So I looked and behold, a pale horse. And the name who sat on him was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death and by the beasts of the earth.
This is an easy one. This seal speaks of Islam "the religion of Death". A fourth of the world's population and a fourth of the land mass is controlled by Islam. In the lands under their control they kill, starve and butcher anyone they choose who will not join their Death cult. They believe if they die as a martyr for Allah that they will go to paradise but what awaits them and follows them is Hades. We saw the Islamic pale green horse ride on worldwide TV during the riots in Cairo. Satan has the Muslims worked up into a demonic frenzy. They are willing to commit mass suicide around the planet to eradicate the Jews, the Christians and anyone else who won't bow to their demonic religion. I believe it is only because Jesus has once again intervened on our behalf with this fourth seal that worldwide butchery on a massive scale does not break out. Again I believe Jesus has intervened because the time in not yet right and the fullness of His church is not yet complete. (Rev.6:11....was completed)
 
Seal 5....I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Have you ever heard the biblical expression---absent from the body, present with the Lord? Well if you die "in Christ", meaning that during your life you made a conscious decision to accept Jesus Christ and the bloody sacrifice He made on your behalf on the cross then you are His for eternity. So when you die, not your physical body but your soul goes immediately to Him (present with the Lord) but the consciousness of your soul is asleep. Now from Christ's sacrifice on the cross to the present, there are untold millions of people that have accepted Him and untold millions who were viciously martyred for Him.(for example--millions of true Christians and Jews were martyred by the Catholic Church in the Middle ages) The souls of all those people have been present with the Lord but asleep since their deaths. 1 Thess.4:13-18 explains this........
 
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."
 
So the souls of these millions and millions of people who have been asleep some from 2000 years ago ,some from two moments ago, are awaken from their sleep as Jesus opens the fifth seal. A lot of them are very angry because they were violently killed for their belief in Jesus throughout the ages and are crying out to Him. They want to know how long it will be before Jesus judges those on earth who killed them. Jesus gives them all white robes and tells them to rest, and that they will have to wait "a little while longer" until the number of His believers is complete. Obviously there is a total accumulated number of fellow servants, a human goal if you will, a preconceived quantity of believers that has to be reached before the Rapture of the church will happen.( not my words but the Lords...Rev.6:11)
 
We on earth will not know when this total quantity of believers has been reached or when this fifth seal has been opened in heaven but it appears that the first four seals have been opened and the believers in Christ are being added to this total at a rapid rate. Christians are dying and being martyred around the world at an accelerated rate whether it be in Sudan, Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesian or most any Muslim country there is.
 
When this total number has been reached Jesus will open the sixth seal. This will be His greatest seal intervention on behalf of His church, His complete removal (rapture) of it from the planet to protect us from His great wrath that immediately starts as we are going up.
 
At the sixth seal........
There will be a world wide terrible earthquake, at that same time the rapture of the church will happen where the dead in Christ (those who were asleep) and the alive in Christ will be instantaneously gathered to Him in the clouds. This Rapture "process" and the great worldwide earthquake and I suspect multiple volcanoes will cause the sun to turn black, the moon red, and our sky (our heavenly view looking upward) to roll up like a scroll. Somewhere in this process when the sky is rolled up and open--maybe open to another dimension, God will cast Satan and his fallen angels to earth like "late over-ripe figs from a fig tree in a mighty wind". And then as per Rev.6:17 in the sixth seal, Jesus proclaims that the great day of His wrath has come. But He kept His promise that His believers would escape this wrath because still in the sixth seal before the opening of the seventh we all show up in heaven meaning that we were raptured up as Satan's crew were cast down. A great multitude (the raptured saints) which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.
 
 
 
P.S..... Some of you that have read this all the way to the end will have questions like....I thought we were raptured in Rev.4 and are represented by the 24 elders?
 
Do you really think that an event as monumental as the rapture of the church would not get any "biblical press coverage"? What I mean is, if an event of this stature happened in Rev.4 there should be many verses describing such a monumental event....and there are not. But when the event does happen at the opening of the sixth seal the "biblical press coverage" is there with millions of us showing up in heaven as per Rev.7:9-17.
 
The 24 elders I believe are some of the resurrected saints from the Old Testament era that Jesus took to heaven with Him in His resurrection.
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Marilyn, I hope I answered all the questions you posed to me from your last article in my text above.
 
Also I read with interest your beliefs about Saturn being the throne of Our Lord.
 
Hope you have caught up on your rest after staying up all night writing your article. You appear to be an amazing woman for 84 years young. May the Lord continue to bless you with good health and may you still be here and in the front row when the great trumpet blows to take us home.
 
I don't know how much more writing I am going to do in the near future for my wife and I are leaving this week from upstate New York to spend Christmas with relatives in North Carolina. Then on to Florida to spend several winter months in its warmth. Not sure about an internet connection in Florida. I'll have to work something out so I can keep tract of you and the rest of the Dove family.
 
Seasons blessings to all........ especially you Marilyn.......John B
 
PS.......It would be awesome if our travel plans were interrupted by a great trumpet, a great shout and a great earthquake and we got to fly "Redeemed Airlines"......straight up.