Jovial

Jovial (31 Aug 2014)
"Rapture vs Second Coming Comparison and When Is The Timing of the WEDDING FEAST???"

Pastor Bob has posted a comparison of the rapture vs the second coming several times now. I decided to look into the ones on the wedding feast.

This sounded worth investigating, at least at first. Many of Pastor Bob's comparisons ignored the fact that if the Rapture comes a split second before the Second Coming, there is no conflict between the two comparisons. But the ones about the bride seemed worth looking into a little more since it specified the timing a bit better. Pastor Bob said...

Rapture

Second Coming

At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the Church, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Revelation 19:6-9). At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will execute judgment on the Earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zechariah 14:3-4, Jude 14-15;
Revelation 19:11-21).

The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9).

War on Earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the Glorious Appearing when the
King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the
smack-down on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21).

So I looked into this and discovered that the information in the above is wrong. These verses do NOT tell us that the wedding actually happens (only that the bride has made herself ready for it), that it happens in heaven, or anything like what the above leads one to believe.

Instead, this is not what I found. Revelation 19 gives this series of timing....

Event Description Verses

First Event: Judgement on the Prostitute via plagues, etc.
Rev 19:1..3 reads...."Salvation and glory and power belong to our God...He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries....The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.” (19:1-3)

So this is a pretty final thing.

2nd Event: Bride Makes herself ready - wedding has not yet happened.
"For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready." (Rev 19:7)

Note that this comes AFTER the judgment, and the "bride has made herself READY", but the marriage has not yet happened. She is ready for it to happen, but it has not yet happened. "READY" does not mean she has been raptured yet or has been removed from the earth. It only means she is "ready".

3rd event: Armageddon He comes down and kills the armies attacking Jerusalem Rev 19:11-21 Pretty straightforward.

4th Event: the 1000 Years Rev 20 describes the 1000 years, and the judgment. It makes no mention of the wedding.

5th Event: New Heaven and New Earth This is the first mention of a wedding and possible hint of timing. Rev 21:2 says, "I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." Does the wedding happen at this time?

Rev 19:6-9 does NOT say that the wedding occurs here, only that the bride has made herself ready. It does not say it will happen in heaven, and may even happen on earth.

If I only read Revelation 19, I might get the impression that the actual wedding may not happen until the New Heaven and New Earth for a good reason; some people who are to be part of the bride will not have been born yet. However, Matt 25 seems to project a different sense of timing; that being that the wedding happens as soon as the bride comes. It tells a parable about 10 virgins; 5 foolish and 5 wise. The 5 wise ones went into the wedding banquet, and the 5 foolish ones did not. So that suggests that the wedding happens immediately / shortly thereafter he "comes", whatever that is.

Of course, we have to piece all of these pieces together. If we put it altogether, it would sound like if Rev 19 tells us the wedding hasn't happened yet, and the rapture happens at the wedding, then that would suggest that the rapture does not occur before Rev 19.

Among some of the other comparisons are....

Rapture

2nd Coming

My Comment

At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His Church. (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17). At the Glorious Appearing (Second Coming), Jesus comes WITH His Church. (Zechariah 14:5; Colossians 3:4; Jude 14,
Revelation 19:14).

This gets back to what I said earlier at my earlier post (click here) about why we should not base interpretations on small gramatical words like "for" and "with". This is a HUGE fallacy.

But the claim is also FALSE. I assume he is referencing the KJV here? The word "for" in John 14:1-3 does not correspond to a Greek word - it was merely added by the translators to make the sentence structure make sense in English.

Also, 1 Thess 4:14 says, "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (King James) So the verse just doesn't even say what Pastor Bob is alleging it says. He claims the verse uses "for" and not "with" , but it uses "with" and not "for" and I am quoting from the King James here!!!!

At the Rapture, Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18). At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus feet touch the Earth. (Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 19:11-21). NO CONFLICT: This is not a conflict if the Rapture happens a split second before the second coming. If the rapture happens a split second before the second coming, we will be caught up with Him in the air, then His feet will touch the earht, then ours after Him. This is a non-conflict, presented as a conflict, to allegedly "prove" that they must be 2 separate events, but it is a completely false basis of conparison.

At the Rapture, Christians are taken first and unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thessalonians At the Glorious Appearing, the wicked are taken first, but the righteous (the Tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matthew 13:28-30). FALSE CLAIM/NON CONFLICT: That is not really what these verses say. Go back and re-read them and perhaps you will see your error. What non-allegorical passage about the second coming says that the wicked will be removed from the earth at all? They are not taken at any rapture, and not removed at Armageddon, and many will be left alive when He returns. The order of resurrections is that the righteous rise first, then the wicked at the second resurrection.

The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. (Blink and it's over!). (1st Corinthians 15:52). The Glorious Appearing will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 24:30; Revelation1:7). NO CONFLICT: First off, this is not a conflict if the Rapture happens a split second before the second coming. Secondly, where does it say it will be a "slow coming"? Sorry, it does NOT say that. But it does not matter anyway, because there is no conflict if the rapture happens slightly before the second coming.
At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (Christian believers) will see Him. (1st John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 15:52). At the Glorious Appearing, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail. (Revelation 1:7). FALSE CLAIM: Nothing in 1 John 3:2 or 1 Cor 15:52 says unbelievers won't see Him. This is a false claim.
At the Rapture, Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout (calling for the Saints at the resurrection). (1st Thessalonians 4:16). At the Glorious Appearing, no shout is mentioned, although the Lord does slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth. (Revelation 19:11-21). FALSE CLAIM and NO CONFLICT: First off, there are a number of "shouts" cited in Rev 19, and we are even given what they are. Angels shout "Halleluyah". So there's no absence of a "shout" there. But secondly, it is illogical, because "The absence of proof is not proof of absence." Even if one passage omits it, that is not proof it is omitted from the event, just that it was not deemed the right time to talk about it.
At the Rapture, a resurrection will take place. (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1st Corinthians 15:51-54). At the Glorious Appearing, there is no resurrection spoken of. (Zechariah 12:10; Zechariah 14:4-5; Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21). FALSE CLAIM: Rev 21:5 talks about "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" and clearly puts the timing of it AFTER THE SECOND COMING. If Rev 21:5 records the "FIRST" resurrection, there cannot be another one that happens before it.
The Rapture can happen at any time ... maybe even now which is why we are to be WATCHING for the return of Christ Jesus! (Revelation 3:3; 1st Thessalonians 5:4-6). The Glorious Appearing will occur at the end of the seven-year Tribulation period. (Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 24:29-30; 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-8). FALSE CLAIM: There is nothing in Scripture that says the Tribulation period covers a 7 year time period. That misunderstanding is from Dan 9, and reading it out of context. But I have proven in the past that Revelation covers more than a 7 year time period.

At the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church At the Glorious Appearing, angels will be sent to gather people together for judgment. (Matthew 13:39, 41 & 49; Matthew 24:31; Matthew 25:31; 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10). FALSE CLAIM and NO CONFLICT: Pastor Bob quotes no Scripture for the idea that no angels are sent at the Rapture. That in and of itself is problematic. But also, the logic here defies the principal that "The absence of proof is not proof of absence". There is no conflict if one verse about the rapture omits mentioning angels and another about the second coming includes it. But since Pastor Bob can't seem to find a verse that tells us that there are no angels involved in the rapture, the whole comparison is invalid because there is just no evidence of his claim.

At the Rapture, those who died in Christ Jesus will return with Jesus to recover their resurrected bodies. (1st Thessalonians 4:14-16). At the Glorious Appearing, Christians will return with Jesus already in their resurrected bodies riding on white horses. (Revelation 19:11-21). NON-CONFLICT: This is much like the first argument, trying to argue over semantics when they are both saying basically the same thing.

At the Rapture, Jesus doesn't return riding a white horse.
13. At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will return riding a white horse. (Revelation 19:11).
NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR THIS CLAIM. Once again, a wild claim is made with no biblical support for it. He doesn't even try to reference a verse on this wild claim.

14. The Rapture will bring with it a message of hope and comfort. (1st Thessalonians 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1st John 3:3).
14. The Glorious Appearing will bring with it a message of judgment. (Joel 3:12-16; Malachi 4:5; Revelation 19:11-21).
FALSE CLAIM; The second coming brings a message of great hope and comfort to believers.

15. The world is deceived. (2nd Thessalonians 2:3-12).

15. Satan is bound. (Revelation 20:1-2).
NON-CONFLICT: These verses are talknig about two time periods. 2 Thess about BEFORE the second coming, and Rev 20:1-2 about AFTERWARDS.

16. The focus is on the Lord and the Church. (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18).

16. The focus is on Israel and the Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14).
BAD INTERPRETATION: Just because one verse discusses one aspect and another a different one does not mean it is two separate events.

17. No signs precede the Rapture. (1st Thessalonians 5:1-3).

17. Signs precede the Second Coming. (Luke 21:11, 15).
YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING: Are you really saying that there are no "signs" that have occured in current events recently?

The Antichrist is revealed after the Rapture. (2nd Thessalonians 2:8). The Antichrist is defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire at the Second Coming. (Revelation 19:20). FALSE CLAIM: There is no verse that says the False Messiah will be revealed after the rapture.

So the list that was submitted to try and "prove" that the Rapture is a separate event from the Second Coming has two major fallacies; FALSE CLAIMS and NON CONFLICTS falsely presented as conflicts, often arguing the absence of proof as proof of absence.

The FALSE CLAIMS were

That the Wedding takens place in heaven; No verse explicitely says that.
That the wedding happens before the second coming; that conflicts with Rev 19 which says she has only made herself ready at that point.
That 1 Thess 4 says "for" and not "with", when the King James says "with" and not "for".
That 2 verses say unbelievers won't see Him when He comes, which it does not say.
That Rev 21:5 is not the "first resurrection", as the Bible calls it.
That Angels won't gather the elect at the Rapture. There's no verse that says that.

the NON-CONFLICTS where basically all variants of one of two things;

Ignoring the fact that one event can happen slightly before the other, and therefore does not present a conflict.
Arguing that the absence of proof is proof of absence.

So basically, this entire comparison is based on false claims and non-conflicts falsely presented as conflicts.

What's more is that some of the claims were repeated twice, reworded just slightly, and padding the length of how many alleged "proofs" there are without actually saying something new.

Shalom,

Joe

Rapture	Second Coming
At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the Church, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Revelation 19:6-9).	At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will execute judgment on the Earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zechariah 14:3-4, Jude 14-15; Revelation 19:11-21).
The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9).	War on Earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the Glorious Appearing when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the smack-down on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21).

Event	Description	Verses
First Event:	Judgement on the Prostitute via plagues, etc.	Rev 19:1..3 reads...."Salvation and glory and power belong to our God...He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries....The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.” (19:1-3) So this is a pretty final thing.
2nd Event:	Bride Makes herself ready - wedding has not yet happened.	"For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready." (Rev 19:7) Note that this comes AFTER the judgment, and the "bride has made herself READY", but the marriage has not yet happened. She is ready for it to happen, but it has not yet happened. "READY" does not mean she has been raptured yet or has been removed from the earth. It only means she is "ready".
3rd event: Armageddon	He comes down and kills the armies attacking Jerusalem	Rev 19:11-21 Pretty straightforward.
4th Event:	the 1000 Years	Rev 20 describes the 1000 years, and the judgment. It makes no mention of the wedding.
5th Event:	New Heaven and New Earth	This is the first mention of a wedding and possible hint of timing. Rev 21:2 says, "I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." Does the wedding happen at this time?

Rapture	2nd Coming	My Comment
At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His Church. (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).	At the Glorious Appearing (Second Coming), Jesus comes WITH His Church. (Zechariah 14:5; Colossians 3:4; Jude 14, Revelation 19:14).	This gets back to what I said earlier at my earlier post (click here) about why we should not base interpretations on small gramatical words like "for" and "with". This is a HUGE fallacy. But the claim is also FALSE. I assume he is referencing the KJV here? The word "for" in John 14:1-3 does not correspond to a Greek word - it was merely added by the translators to make the sentence structure make sense in English. Also, 1 Thess 4:14 says, "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (King James) So the verse just doesn't even say what Pastor Bob is alleging it says. He claims the verse uses "for" and not "with" , but it uses "with" and not "for" and I am quoting from the King James here!!!!
At the Rapture, Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18).	At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus feet touch the Earth. (Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 19:11-21).	NO CONFLICT: This is not a conflict if the Rapture happens a split second before the second coming. If the rapture happens a split second before the second coming, we will be caught up with Him in the air, then His feet will touch the earht, then ours after Him. This is a non-conflict, presented as a conflict, to allegedly "prove" that they must be 2 separate events, but it is a completely false basis of conparison.
At the Rapture, Christians are taken first and unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thessalonians	At the Glorious Appearing, the wicked are taken first, but the righteous (the Tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matthew 13:28-30).	FALSE CLAIM/NON CONFLICT: That is not really what these verses say. Go back and re-read them and perhaps you will see your error. What non-allegorical passage about the second coming says that the wicked will be removed from the earth at all? They are not taken at any rapture, and not removed at Armageddon, and many will be left alive when He returns. The order of resurrections is that the righteous rise first, then the wicked at the second resurrection.
The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. (Blink and it's over!). (1st Corinthians 15:52).	The Glorious Appearing will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 24:30; Revelation1:7).	NO CONFLICT: First off, this is not a conflict if the Rapture happens a split second before the second coming. Secondly, where does it say it will be a "slow coming"? Sorry, it does NOT say that. But it does not matter anyway, because there is no conflict if the rapture happens slightly before the second coming.
At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (Christian believers) will see Him. (1st John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 15:52).	At the Glorious Appearing, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail. (Revelation 1:7).	FALSE CLAIM: Nothing in 1 John 3:2 or 1 Cor 15:52 says unbelievers won't see Him. This is a false claim.
At the Rapture, Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout (calling for the Saints at the resurrection). (1st Thessalonians 4:16).	At the Glorious Appearing, no shout is mentioned, although the Lord does slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth. (Revelation 19:11-21).	FALSE CLAIM and NO CONFLICT: First off, there are a number of "shouts" cited in Rev 19, and we are even given what they are. Angels shout "Halleluyah". So there's no absence of a "shout" there. But secondly, it is illogical, because "The absence of proof is not proof of absence." Even if one passage omits it, that is not proof it is omitted from the event, just that it was not deemed the right time to talk about it.
At the Rapture, a resurrection will take place. (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1st Corinthians 15:51-54).	At the Glorious Appearing, there is no resurrection spoken of. (Zechariah 12:10; Zechariah 14:4-5; Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21).	FALSE CLAIM: Rev 21:5 talks about "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" and clearly puts the timing of it AFTER THE SECOND COMING. If Rev 21:5 records the "FIRST" resurrection, there cannot be another one that happens before it.
The Rapture can happen at any time ... maybe even now which is why we are to be WATCHING for the return of Christ Jesus! (Revelation 3:3; 1st Thessalonians 5:4-6).	The Glorious Appearing will occur at the end of the seven-year Tribulation period. (Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 24:29-30; 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-8).	FALSE CLAIM: There is nothing in Scripture that says the Tribulation period covers a 7 year time period. That misunderstanding is from Dan 9, and reading it out of context. But I have proven in the past that Revelation covers more than a 7 year time period.
At the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church	At the Glorious Appearing, angels will be sent to gather people together for judgment. (Matthew 13:39, 41 & 49; Matthew 24:31; Matthew 25:31; 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10).	FALSE CLAIM and NO CONFLICT: Pastor Bob quotes no Scripture for the idea that no angels are sent at the Rapture. That in and of itself is problematic. But also, the logic here defies the principal that "The absence of proof is not proof of absence". There is no conflict if one verse about the rapture omits mentioning angels and another about the second coming includes it. But since Pastor Bob can't seem to find a verse that tells us that there are no angels involved in the rapture, the whole comparison is invalid because there is just no evidence of his claim.
At the Rapture, those who died in Christ Jesus will return with Jesus to recover their resurrected bodies. (1st Thessalonians 4:14-16).	At the Glorious Appearing, Christians will return with Jesus already in their resurrected bodies riding on white horses. (Revelation 19:11-21).	NON-CONFLICT: This is much like the first argument, trying to argue over semantics when they are both saying basically the same thing.
At the Rapture, Jesus doesn't return riding a white horse.	13. At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will return riding a white horse. (Revelation 19:11).	NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR THIS CLAIM. Once again, a wild claim is made with no biblical support for it. He doesn't even try to reference a verse on this wild claim.
14. The Rapture will bring with it a message of hope and comfort. (1st Thessalonians 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1st John 3:3).	14. The Glorious Appearing will bring with it a message of judgment. (Joel 3:12-16; Malachi 4:5; Revelation 19:11-21).	FALSE CLAIM; The second coming brings a message of great hope and comfort to believers.
15. The world is deceived. (2nd Thessalonians 2:3-12).	15. Satan is bound. (Revelation 20:1-2).	NON-CONFLICT: These verses are talknig about two time periods. 2 Thess about BEFORE the second coming, and Rev 20:1-2 about AFTERWARDS.
16. The focus is on the Lord and the Church. (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18).	16. The focus is on Israel and the Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14).	BAD INTERPRETATION: Just because one verse discusses one aspect and another a different one does not mean it is two separate events.
17. No signs precede the Rapture. (1st Thessalonians 5:1-3).	17. Signs precede the Second Coming. (Luke 21:11, 15).	YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING: Are you really saying that there are no "signs" that have occured in current events recently?
The Antichrist is revealed after the Rapture. (2nd Thessalonians 2:8).	The Antichrist is defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire at the Second Coming. (Revelation 19:20).	FALSE CLAIM: There is no verse that says the False Messiah will be revealed after the rapture.