From: Marilyn Agee
Hi:
> The "prayers of the saints" aren't singing a new song in Rev 5:9, it's > the Four Beasts and Twenty-four Elders who sing a new song.
A relative pronoun relates to the noun preceding it. "SAINTS. And THEY" (the saints)
Rev 5:8-10 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of SAINTS. 9 And THEY (the saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, on or over) the earth."
The four beasts are not saints. They represent Saturn's four faces, quarters, east, south, west and north. They do not sing the new song.
They represent the cardinal compass points, as do the four faces in Eze. 1:10. When Israel camped around the Tabernacle, four flags with these four faces were put at the compass points, east, south, west and north.
Eze 1:10 says of the four terrestrial planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars), "As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man (representing south), and the face of a lion (representing east), on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox (representing west) on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle (representing north)."
Eze 1:6 says, "And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings (kanaph, wings or quarters)." The four terrestrial planets are globes that face four directions all at the same time.
One of the four planets is Earth. Eze. 1:15 says, "Now as I beheld the living creatures (lively flying things), behold one wheel (orbit) upon the EARTH by the living creatures, with his four faces."
The 24 elders are all of Israel. They are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel. They are not out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
The "saints" that have just been caught up to heaven are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" on Earth.
> In Rev 6:12-17, at the Sixth Seal, we see all the unsaved who see the > Lord Jesus Christ coming in the sky at the "Gathering together of the > Elect" trying to hide themselves, even telling the rocks to fall on them > to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. They know it's too late, having > already received the Mark of the Beast. Now, you can imagine placing > this event prior to the Mark of the Beast. Do you think anyone would > follow Antichrist and take his Mark after seeing Christ come in the sky? > Very few, if any! Therefore, the "Open Door" can only be an event unseen > by the world. The "Open Door" is an event to escape the persecution of > Antichrist by those found "worthy to escape" per the Lord Jesus Christ > (Rev 3:8,10, Luke 21:34-36). The Dead in Christ certainly have no need > to escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
You are mixing apples and oranges. There are two Raptures, the first one in I Thess. 4:13-18 and the last one in I Cor. 15:51-54. Rev 6:12-17 is talking about the Day of God's Wrath, the day of the last Rapture.
At the first Rapture, Jesus may not appear. We are to meet him in the air. Nothing says that he will appear. At the last Rapture, Jesus will be seen. People will look up and see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky.
Of the Day of God's Wrath, Eze. 38:18-23 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain (i.e., a tsunami), and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I WILL BE KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS, and they shall know that I am the LORD."
Mat 24:31 shows that the First-Trump Rapture has already taken place. It says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."
The Last-Trump Rapture of the Tribulation saints is about to take place. We were caught up prior to this time. When the Last-Trump Rapture takes place, those caught up in the First-Trump Rapture are already in Heaven. There is a FIRSTBORN and a LASTBORN, a first trumpet and a last trumpet.
Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling".
It looks like we will have to agree to disagree. It is a good thing that things like this do not keep us from going up in the first Rapture. We will fill in the gaps as we proceed.
Agape,
Marilyn Agee
mjagee@verizon.net
prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com
------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
Bill Griese (6 Aug 2013)
"Reply to Marilyn Agee"
Reply to Marilyn Agee
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2013/marilyna84-1.htm
My previous post: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/billg730.htm
Hi,
I checked a Scofield 1 Bible and the note Laurie referenced was not in it, as you indicated, so Laurie must have the Scofield 2. However, this doesn't change things for me. Many ancient Greek manuscripts, the consensus of contemporary scholarship, and many English Bible Versions omit "us" in Rev 5:9 and use "them" instead of "us" and "they" instead of "we" in Rev 5:10. The context of the word "saints" in Rev 5:8 refers to the "prayers of the saints." The "prayers of the saints" aren't singing a new song in Rev 5:9, it's the Four Beasts and Twenty-four Elders who sing a new song. The phrase "hast redeemed" in the song refers to Calvary, and doesn't indicate a Rapture. In Rev 5:11-12, there are listed Many Angels, Four Beasts, and the 24 Elders, but no Church, it is assumed. I believe that the 24 Elders are Redeemed Old Testament Saints, and are not part of the Church. When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected many Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many.
Matt 27:50-53 KJV "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the (Old Testament) Saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
Acts 6:7 KJV "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."
The Old Testament Saints that arose included priests who went into the city and appeared to their Levitical Priest descendants causing many to believe. I believe the 24 Elders are from this group. The Lord told the 12 Apostles that they would sit on 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt 19:28). This doesn't make them part of the 24 Elders before the Throne of God in Heaven. The Apostle John in Rev 4:4, saw 24 Elders sitting on 24 seats around God's throne, and he was not one of them. I just don't see anything that makes me believe that John was both "narrator and actor" as you stated. Sorry, I don't see the Church in Heaven in Revelation chapters 4 & 5, and I certainly don't believe that I'm forcing the scriptures to say what I want them to say.
Rev 11:18 KJV "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
The rewards are given to the Saints (in Rev 11:18) after the Seventh Trumpet (in Rev 11:15), not before the First Seal. Therefore, the 24 Elders Crowns in Revelation chapter 4 are not from the rewards to the Saints. This indicates they are not part of the Church and eliminates their Crowns as proof of a Rev 4:1 Rapture.
We are a mere ten days apart on the timing of the First Rapture event. I've said numerous times that Rev 2:10's "ten days" may be a timing clue, and that I would put the "Open Door" ten days following the Abomination of Desolation, which is ten days after your view. The Satanically indwelt Antichrist is tied up chasing the 144,000 (plus others who are not counted) into the wilderness, and disengages with them only after God's supernatural protection stops him. Antichrist then turns his attention on the remnant of the Saints (Rev 12:6-17). Ten days into the Great Tribulation?
However, we appear to have a major difference of opinion on the First Rapture event itself. There is no resurrection of the Dead in Christ at the "Open Door", which I believe is a secret event that will go unnoticed by the world. Christ only appears in the sky and resurrects the Dead in Christ at the "Gathering together of the Elect", which is the Main 2nd Rapture event (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Rev 6:12-17, Rev 7:9-17). The "Open Door" is not a duplicate "Gathering together of the Elect" which is why scripture gives them different names. Both the Apostle John (Rev 4:1-2, A.D. 90's) and the Apostle Paul (2 Cor 12:2-4) were caught up through an "Open Door" which didn't necessitate Christ coming back in the sky.
In Rev 6:12-17, at the Sixth Seal, we see all the unsaved who see the Lord Jesus Christ coming in the sky at the "Gathering together of the Elect" trying to hide themselves, even telling the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. They know it's too late, having already received the Mark of the Beast. Now, you can imagine placing this event prior to the Mark of the Beast. Do you think anyone would follow Antichrist and take his Mark after seeing Christ come in the sky? Very few, if any! Therefore, the "Open Door" can only be an event unseen by the world. The "Open Door" is an event to escape the persecution of Antichrist by those found "worthy to escape" per the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev 3:8,10, Luke 21:34-36). The Dead in Christ certainly have no need to escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
Rev 6:12-17 KJV "And I beheld when he had opened the Sixth Seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Luke 21:34-36 KJV "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always (repenting), that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
YBIC,
Bill Griese