Hi beloved Doves.
I started reading a book by John
Shorey on: Window of the Lord's
Return 2012-2020 by John Shorey (Nov 1, 2010)
In the start of the book he issued a
challenge to anyone who could change his thinking on
pre- and mid trib. Now I am not one to take up such
challenges as I am firm in the belief and am a watchman
on the wall – The Scriptures are opened to those who ask
and the Holy Spirit guides, but I was led by the SPIRIT
to compile a study and forward it to the writer. I have
tried many times in the past week to contact the writer,
but he never responds. Thus I am publishing the study on
Five Doves for all to read and take heart, and
especially those who read his book.
Dear John Shorey,
This is not to take up the
challenge posed in your book, as I do not usually take
up challenges, as I trust wholly in the LORD and the
revealed scriptures thru the working of the HOLY SPIRIT,
but to bring Glory to our LORD JESUS and encourage one
another, as we experience the precipice of the end times
that is at hand as exhorted to us in the book of
Thessalonians.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are
alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we
shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort
one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But concerning the
times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I
should write to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves
know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a
thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they say,
"Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon
them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they
shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren,
are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of
light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor
of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not
sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:11 Therefore comfort
each other and edify one another, just as you also are
doing. (accentuation mine)
Now getting to the scriptures:
I have just started to read your
book and look forward to your insights as I can see that
your heart is pure. As a starting point and background I
have always used NLT, NIV and Holmans Bibles, because,
even being English in my upbringing, I cannot stand
Shakesperean English and grammar as is used in the KJV,
as to my mind it portrays a rigid, strict and
unforgiving LORD, whom I have come to know as loving and
kind in what HE did for me (Giving me a chance to return
to my loved ones and to do HIS will, after an NDE
experience in 2004) as well as what HE has done for all
who call on HIS name and repent and become borne again.
Studying HIS word and being Berean
in nature, I found that using E-Sword was the key to
being able to evaluate scripture at a press of a key,
switching between different translations and
commentaries made the difference. You see, it was there
that I discovered that the more modern translations have
small nuances that totally obscure meaning in the living
Word.
An example of a study(Kingship or
servanthood) that I posted to various biblical sites
highlights precisely that, that most modern translations
obscure a very important meaning in the book of
Revelation and other pieces of scripture.
The one text that portrays the
difference strikingly is the following as portrayed by
NIV, Holmans and others on Rev5:6-10:
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if
it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne,
encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.
The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the
seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He
went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who
sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four
living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down
before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were
holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the
prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song,
saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased
for God
persons from every tribe and
language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a
kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
Note that the NIV and others
allude to “..you purchased for God persons from
every tribe and language and people and nation”
This piece of text (above) as it
is translated by NIV and others, completely hides the
meaning of the the verse. Compare it to the NKJV and a
totally different meaning is found, because the 24
elders are singing a redemption song (redeemed from
tribes, nations and tongues) in their own words to GOD.
NKJV rendition (which is closest
to the original) states the following which causes my
spirit to rejoice in the message given:
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new
song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to
open its seals; For You were slain, And have
redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every
tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made
us kings and priests to our God; And we shall
reign on the earth." (accentuation mine)
Note the difference in the “peoples”
from NIV and others to the “US”, which gives a
clear and precise meaning to the scripture and identity
of the Elders – the Elders are saying They have been
redeemed by JESUS blood out of every tribe and tongue
and people and nation – it protrays in no uncertain
terms as to who the elders are!
Here is the study I posted on the
web after the HOLY SPIRIT lead me in the understanding –
All Glory to JESUS CHRIST my Redeemer:
Kingship or servanthood
To be Kings and Priests to rule
and reign on earth with Jesus- King of Kings or to spend
eternity in Heaven in servitude serving the King in all
eternity – Kingship or servanthood – today the choice is
yours while we are still in the period of grace! Come to
know Jesus personally, through faith as a reborn
Christian and have an intimate relationship with HIM the
Messiah.
Consider the plain truth in these
2 chapters of Revelation(singular) which is not open to
interpretation as when the Word makes plain sense, do
not seek another sense.
Note the scene in the Throne room
is different to that which Ezekiel sees (he does not
witness the Elders – only the 4 living creatures)
Rev 5:7 Then He came and
took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on
the throne.
Rev 5:8 Now when He had
taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the
twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each
having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which
are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new
song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to
open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us
to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and
people and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made us
kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the
earth."
Revelation 7:14-17
Rev 7:9 After these things I
looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could
number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues,
standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed
with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with
a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who
sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 All the angels
stood around the throne and the elders and the four
living creatures, and fell on their faces before the
throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying: "Amen!
Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor
and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the
elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in
white robes, and where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14 And I said to him,
"Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones
who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their
robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore they are
before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in
His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell
among them.
Rev 7:16 They shall neither
hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not
strike them, nor any heat;
Rev 7:17 for the Lamb who is
in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead
them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe
away every tear from their eyes."
In chapters 4 and 5, John
recognized the church. Yet he doesn't recognize this
multitude before the throne. Therefore, they cannot be
the church.
Who is this company? First of all,
keep in mind the angels are thrilled to see them arrive
in heaven.
Jesus said that when one lost
person is found, all of heaven breaks out in a fabulous
chorus of praise (Luk_15:7, Luk_15:10).
Therefore, these are people who
were lost, but who have come to believe in Jesus during
the Tribulation. Be faithful in sharing, precious
people—even if you're not presently seeing people
respond.
Keep proclaiming the Word because
the greatest revival in world history will take place
after the Rapture.
As we read through the book, we'll
see angels flying across the sky, and two witnesses
preaching in Jerusalem.
Then suddenly, a "great multitude
which no man could number" will turn to the Lord. But
their repentance could very well cost them their lives,
as Antichrist declares war on those who refuse his mark.
"I'll wait to get saved until I
see the Tribulation really happen," some say. "So what
if I'm martyred in the process? It will be worth it."
I answer, "You must understand
that people saved during the Tribulation are not the
church, and therefore are in an entirely different
position than the church…
• This company stands before the
throne (verse Rev_7:9).
• The bride of Christ sits on the
throne (Rev_3:21).
• This company serves the Lord
(verse Rev_7:15).
• The bride of Christ is served by
the Lord (Luk_12:37).
Precious people, today is the day
of salvation (2Co_6:2) through faith. Don't wait until
you see everything happen with your physical eyes before
making a life changing choice. Be a man or woman of
faith, and come, be part of the bride of Christ. In
faith you can become Kings and Priests – if you wait to
see it with your own eyes and you make a choice for HIM
in the Tribulation time – you will loose your head and
gain eternal life – in servanthood.
Ref: Dr Warren Wiersbe & Jon
Courson – this is also indicated by John Mac Arthur
Study Bible
And here is an exposition as to
the persons making up the elders from scripture
Who are the 24 Elders
sitting around the Throne
And around the throne were
twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw
twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments,
and golden crowns on their heads. Rev4:4
An important interpretative issue
in the Book of Revelation revolves around the identity
of the 24 elders. Who the 24 elders represent can be
very important in regards to the pre-trib rapture.
The 24 elders are mentioned five
times in the Book of Revelation as follows: Rev4:4,
Rev10; Rev5:8; Rev11:16; and Rev19:4.
If they represent the church, then
it reflects what one would expect if the rapture has
occurred before the tribulation has begun. If it
represents someone else, then it would not necessarily
argue against pretribulationism, especially if they were
angels.
I think it is clearly the church
that these 24 elders represent and therefore it supports
the fact that Christ’s Bride has been taken to heaven
before the start of the tribulation.
Angels or Humans?
Some think that the 24 elders are
angels. If they are angels then they cannot represent
the church or redeemed humans of any distinction.
Robert Thomas argues that the 24
elders are angels and says the following:
This particular group of angels
primarily assists in the execution of the divine rule of
the universe.
Very probably they are part of the
assembly of heavenly beings that are regularly pictured
as present with God in heaven (cf. 1Kings22:19, Ps.89:7,
Isa 24:23
John MacArthur makes a strong case
that the 24 elders represent a completed body of
redeemed humanity, which at this point in future history
could only be the church.
First, the reference to the
twenty-four thrones on which the twenty-four elders sat
indicates that they reign with Christ.
Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit
on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning.
Their role is to serve as “ministering spirits, sent out
to render service for the sake of those who will inherit
salvation” ( Heb1:14 cf. Matt18:10). The church, on the
other hand, is repeatedly promised a co-regency with
Christ (Rev2:26–27; Rev3:21; Rev5:10; Rev20:4;
Matt19:28; Luk22:30; 1Cor6:2-3; 2Tim2:12
Presbuteroi (elders) is never used
in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It
is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers
of both Israel and the church.
There is no indisputable use of
presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels.
(Some believe that “elders” in Isa24:23 refers to
angels, but it could as well refer to humans.) Further,
“elder” would be an inappropriate term to describe
angels, who do not age.
While angels do appear in white
(e.g. Joh20:12; Acts1:10), white garments more commonly
are the dress of believers.
That is particularly true in the
immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the
believers at Sardis that they would “be clothed in white
garments” (Rev3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans
to “buy from Me ... white garments so that you may
clothe yourself” (Rev3:18). At the marriage supper of
the Lamb, His bride will “clothe herself in fine linen,
bright and clean” (Rev19:8). White garments symbolize
Christ’s righteousness imputed to believers at
salvation.
That the elders wore golden crowns
on their heads provides further evidence that they were
humans.
Crowns are never promised in
Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing
them.
Stephanos (crown) is the victor’s
crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial,
those who competed and won the victory.
Christ promised such a crown to
the loyal believers at Smyrna: “Be faithful until death,
and I will give you the crown of life” (2:10).
“Everyone who competes in the
games exercises self-control in all things,” wrote Paul.
“They then do it to receive a perishable wreath
[stephanos], but we an imperishable” (1 Cor. 9:25).
He wrote of that imperishable
crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: “In the future there is
laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the
Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day;
and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His
appearing.”
James wrote of “the crown of life
which the Lord has promised to those who love Him”
(James 1:12), and Peter of “the unfading crown of glory”
(1 Pet. 5:4).
Holy angels do not personally
struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the
overcomer’s crown, the crown of those who successfully
ran the race and finished victorious, would not be
appropriate for them.
It is clear to me that the 24
elders must be a reference to humans, not angels.
The angels are represented in
verse six by the four living creatures.
The throne-room scene of chapter
four depicts God on His throne and representatives of
His domain, which is all of creation, are depicted
there.
The church is present also
represented by the 24 elders.
Why the Number Twenty-Four?
Some believe that the number 24
represents all the redeemed throughout history and not
just the church.
It is argued that in Rev21:12-14
the New Jerusalem in the Eternal State is made up of 12
gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel written
on them (Rev21:12). In verse 14, the wall around the
city is made up of 12 foundation stones with the names
of the 12 apostles of the Lamb written on them.
Thus, 12 plus 12 equals 24 and
that would mean that the 24 elders must be composed of
all the redeemed, both Israel and the church.
There are a number of problems
with this view.
First, Revelation 21 does not use
the number 24. Instead, to come up with 24 one must add
the two numbers together and that requires an assumption
not stated in the text.
Why did Revelation 21 not use the
number 24? Instead, there are two different items to
which the two sets of 12 refer.
The 12 gates signify the sons of
Israel while the church is represented by 12 foundation
stones.
To mix the gates and foundation
stones would be a case of mixing apples and oranges, so
to speak.
The 24 elders are seen throughout
Revelation as a single group, whoever they represent.
Rev21 does not use the number 24 and is not a reference
to the 24 elders.
The number 24 is used in the Old
Testament in a similar way that we see its use in
Revelation.
“There were twenty-four officers
of the sanctuary representing the twenty-four courses of
the Levitical priests (1Chron24:4-5, 7-18), as well as
twenty-four divisions of singers in the temple (1 Chron.
25).”
We see in both instances in
Chronicles 24 was God’s choice to represent the
Levitical priests and the Levitical singers.
Thus, 24 appears to be a
representative number in Rev4 as the elders denote the
church in heaven before God’s war council in preparation
for the judgment of the world during the tribulation.
Only in one instance does an
individual from the 24 elders act as an individual
(REV5:5).
In this instance it is to speak as
the interpreting person to tell John to stop weeping
because no one was found to open the scroll.
The elder says, “Stop weeping;
behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the
Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and
its seven seals.”
Why is one of the 24 elders called
upon to explain things to John?
One of the 24 elders is called
upon, instead of an angel that normally explains things
in Revelation, because they are the only ones within
God’s throne-room that has personally experienced
salvation.
Since John’s question relates to
salvation, it was appropriate for a redeemed individual
to note that the Lamb of God—Jesus—was the one qualified
to open the scroll.
That scroll is the title deed to
planet earth and if no one was able to open it then the
redemption of earth and mankind could not have been
carried out.
That is why John was weeping,
because he knew that his destiny and that of all of
humanity depended upon finding one qualified to open the
scroll.
Conclusion
Since the 24 elders of Revelation
represent the church in heaven, this means that the
church—the body of Christ and His Bride—is complete,
since she has received her rewards (i.e., the crowns)
and is in a position of co-rulership with Christ
(Rev3:21).
This depiction supports a pre-trib
rapture because from a chronological perspective of
Revelation 4 the events of the tribulation have yet to
begin.
How do we know? We know because
Revelation 5 presents the plan for tribulation judgment
as contained in the scroll that only the Lamb is worthy
to open.
Revelation 6 portrays the Lamb’s
opening of each seal as the initiating cause of those
judgments on earth.
This would mean that since all 19
seal, trumpet and bowl judgments are contained in the
scroll then none of these events of the tribulation
could have transpired in Revelation 4.
Therefore, if the church is in
heaven before the tribulation then pretribulationism is
supported by the notion that the 24 elders represent the
church.
The reason the 24 elders cannot
represent simply redeemed mankind as a whole, which
would include Israel, is because the redemption of those
people is not yet complete by Revelation 4.
The 24 elders cannot include
tribulation saints, since their group of redeemed
individuals is not complete until the second coming.
The same would be true of Israel.
It would appear that tribulation saints are grouped with
other Gentile believers down through history from Adam
until the church and then the tribulation saints. Thus,
they are not yet complete.
The church alone will be the only
complete redeemed people group by the time Revelation 4
occurs in history.
This is why the 24 elders in
heaven at this time support the church’s blessed hope of
the pretribulational rapture. Maranatha!
Love in the KING of KINGS – JESUS
CHRIST MASCHIAGH NAGID
jimmy lishman – Redeemed by HIS
blood, not destined for wrath and expecting HIS calling
shortly – “COME UP HERE”