Jimmy Lishman (14 Aug 2012)
"Spirit led challenge that was not taken up by the writer"

Hi beloved Doves.

I started reading a book by John Shorey on: Window of the Lord's Return 2012-2020 by John Shorey (Nov 1, 2010)


In the start of the book he issued a challenge to anyone who could change his thinking on pre- and mid trib. Now I am not one to take up such challenges as I am firm in the belief and am a watchman on the wall – The Scriptures are opened to those who ask and the Holy Spirit guides, but I was led by the SPIRIT to compile a study and forward it to the writer. I have tried many times in the past week to contact the writer, but he never responds. Thus I am publishing the study on Five Doves for all to read and take heart, and especially those who read his book.


Dear John Shorey,


This is not to take up the challenge posed in your book, as I do not usually take up challenges, as I trust wholly in the LORD and the revealed scriptures thru the working of the HOLY SPIRIT, but to bring Glory to our LORD JESUS and encourage one another, as we experience the precipice of the end times that is at hand as exhorted to us in the book of Thessalonians.


1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1  But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

1Th 5:2  For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:3  For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4  But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5  You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:11  Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. (accentuation mine)


Now getting to the scriptures:


I have just started to read your book and look forward to your insights as I can see that your heart is pure. As a starting point and background I have always used NLT, NIV and Holmans Bibles, because, even being English in my upbringing, I cannot stand Shakesperean English and grammar as is used in the KJV, as to my mind it portrays a rigid, strict and unforgiving LORD, whom I have come to know as loving and kind in what HE did for me (Giving me a chance to return to my loved ones and to do HIS will, after an NDE experience in 2004) as well as what HE has done for all who call on HIS name and repent and become borne again.


Studying HIS word and being Berean in nature, I found that using E-Sword was the key to being able to evaluate scripture at a press of a key, switching between different translations and commentaries made the difference. You see, it was there that I discovered that the more modern translations have small nuances that totally obscure meaning in the living Word.

An example of a study(Kingship or servanthood) that I posted to various biblical sites highlights precisely that, that most modern translations obscure a very important meaning in the book of Revelation and other pieces of scripture.


The one text that portrays the difference strikingly is the following as portrayed by NIV, Holmans and others on Rev5:6-10:


6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased for God

persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign on the earth.”


Note that the NIV and others allude to “..you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation”


This piece of text (above) as it is translated by NIV and others, completely hides the meaning of the the verse. Compare it to the NKJV and a totally different meaning is found, because the 24 elders are singing a redemption song (redeemed from tribes, nations and tongues) in their own words to GOD.


NKJV rendition (which is closest to the original) states the following which causes my spirit to rejoice in the message given:

Rev 5:9  And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Rev 5:10  And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (accentuation mine)


Note the difference in the “peoples” from NIV and others to the “US”, which gives a clear and precise meaning to the scripture and identity of the Elders – the Elders are saying They have been redeemed by JESUS blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation – it protrays in no uncertain terms as to who the elders are!


Here is the study I posted on the web after the HOLY SPIRIT lead me in the understanding – All Glory to JESUS CHRIST my Redeemer:


Kingship or servanthood


To be Kings and Priests to rule and reign on earth with Jesus- King of Kings or to spend eternity in Heaven in servitude serving the King in all eternity – Kingship or servanthood – today the choice is yours while we are still in the period of grace! Come to know Jesus personally, through faith as a reborn Christian and have an intimate relationship with HIM the Messiah.

Consider the plain truth in these 2 chapters of Revelation(singular) which is not open to interpretation as when the Word makes plain sense, do not seek another sense.


Note the scene in the Throne room is different to that which Ezekiel sees (he does not witness the Elders – only the 4 living creatures)


Rev 5:7  Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Rev 5:8  Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 5:9  And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Rev 5:10  And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."


Revelation 7:14-17

Rev 7:9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Rev 7:10  and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

Rev 7:11  All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

Rev 7:12  saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

Rev 7:16  They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;

Rev 7:17  for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."


In chapters 4 and 5, John recognized the church. Yet he doesn't recognize this multitude before the throne. Therefore, they cannot be the church.

Who is this company? First of all, keep in mind the angels are thrilled to see them arrive in heaven.

Jesus said that when one lost person is found, all of heaven breaks out in a fabulous chorus of praise (Luk_15:7, Luk_15:10).

Therefore, these are people who were lost, but who have come to believe in Jesus during the Tribulation. Be faithful in sharing, precious people—even if you're not presently seeing people respond.

Keep proclaiming the Word because the greatest revival in world history will take place after the Rapture.

As we read through the book, we'll see angels flying across the sky, and two witnesses preaching in Jerusalem.

Then suddenly, a "great multitude which no man could number" will turn to the Lord. But their repentance could very well cost them their lives, as Antichrist declares war on those who refuse his mark.


"I'll wait to get saved until I see the Tribulation really happen," some say. "So what if I'm martyred in the process? It will be worth it."

I answer, "You must understand that people saved during the Tribulation are not the church, and therefore are in an entirely different position than the church…


• This company stands before the throne (verse Rev_7:9).

• The bride of Christ sits on the throne (Rev_3:21).

• This company serves the Lord (verse Rev_7:15).

• The bride of Christ is served by the Lord (Luk_12:37).


Precious people, today is the day of salvation (2Co_6:2) through faith. Don't wait until you see everything happen with your physical eyes before making a life changing choice. Be a man or woman of faith, and come, be part of the bride of Christ. In faith you can become Kings and Priests – if you wait to see it with your own eyes and you make a choice for HIM in the Tribulation time – you will loose your head and gain eternal life – in servanthood.

Ref: Dr Warren Wiersbe & Jon Courson – this is also indicated by John Mac Arthur Study Bible


And here is an exposition as to the persons making up the elders from scripture

Who are the 24 Elders sitting around the Throne


And around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. Rev4:4


An important interpretative issue in the Book of Revelation revolves around the identity of the 24 elders. Who the 24 elders represent can be very important in regards to the pre-trib rapture.

The 24 elders are mentioned five times in the Book of Revelation as follows: Rev4:4, Rev10; Rev5:8; Rev11:16; and Rev19:4.


If they represent the church, then it reflects what one would expect if the rapture has occurred before the tribulation has begun. If it represents someone else, then it would not necessarily argue against pretribulationism, especially if they were angels.

I think it is clearly the church that these 24 elders represent and therefore it supports the fact that Christ’s Bride has been taken to heaven before the start of the tribulation.


Angels or Humans?

Some think that the 24 elders are angels. If they are angels then they cannot represent the church or redeemed humans of any distinction.


Robert Thomas argues that the 24 elders are angels and says the following:

This particular group of angels primarily assists in the execution of the divine rule of the universe.

Very probably they are part of the assembly of heavenly beings that are regularly pictured as present with God in heaven (cf. 1Kings22:19, Ps.89:7, Isa 24:23


John MacArthur makes a strong case that the 24 elders represent a completed body of redeemed humanity, which at this point in future history could only be the church.


First, the reference to the twenty-four thrones on which the twenty-four elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ.


Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning. Their role is to serve as “ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation” ( Heb1:14 cf. Matt18:10). The church, on the other hand, is repeatedly promised a co-regency with Christ (Rev2:26–27; Rev3:21; Rev5:10; Rev20:4; Matt19:28; Luk22:30; 1Cor6:2-3; 2Tim2:12


Presbuteroi (elders) is never used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers of both Israel and the church.


There is no indisputable use of presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels. (Some believe that “elders” in Isa24:23 refers to angels, but it could as well refer to humans.) Further, “elder” would be an inappropriate term to describe angels, who do not age.


While angels do appear in white (e.g. Joh20:12; Acts1:10), white garments more commonly are the dress of believers.


That is particularly true in the immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would “be clothed in white garments” (Rev3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans to “buy from Me ... white garments so that you may clothe yourself” (Rev3:18). At the marriage supper of the Lamb, His bride will “clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean” (Rev19:8). White garments symbolize Christ’s righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.


That the elders wore golden crowns on their heads provides further evidence that they were humans.

Crowns are never promised in Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them.

Stephanos (crown) is the victor’s crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial, those who competed and won the victory.

Christ promised such a crown to the loyal believers at Smyrna: “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” (2:10).

“Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things,” wrote Paul. “They then do it to receive a perishable wreath [stephanos], but we an imperishable” (1 Cor. 9:25).


He wrote of that imperishable crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: “In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.”

James wrote of “the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12), and Peter of “the unfading crown of glory” (1 Pet. 5:4).

Holy angels do not personally struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the overcomer’s crown, the crown of those who successfully ran the race and finished victorious, would not be appropriate for them.


It is clear to me that the 24 elders must be a reference to humans, not angels.

The angels are represented in verse six by the four living creatures.

The throne-room scene of chapter four depicts God on His throne and representatives of His domain, which is all of creation, are depicted there.

The church is present also represented by the 24 elders.


Why the Number Twenty-Four?

Some believe that the number 24 represents all the redeemed throughout history and not just the church.

It is argued that in Rev21:12-14 the New Jerusalem in the Eternal State is made up of 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel written on them (Rev21:12). In verse 14, the wall around the city is made up of 12 foundation stones with the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb written on them.

Thus, 12 plus 12 equals 24 and that would mean that the 24 elders must be composed of all the redeemed, both Israel and the church.


There are a number of problems with this view.

First, Revelation 21 does not use the number 24. Instead, to come up with 24 one must add the two numbers together and that requires an assumption not stated in the text.

Why did Revelation 21 not use the number 24? Instead, there are two different items to which the two sets of 12 refer.

The 12 gates signify the sons of Israel while the church is represented by 12 foundation stones.

To mix the gates and foundation stones would be a case of mixing apples and oranges, so to speak.

The 24 elders are seen throughout Revelation as a single group, whoever they represent. Rev21 does not use the number 24 and is not a reference to the 24 elders.


The number 24 is used in the Old Testament in a similar way that we see its use in Revelation.

“There were twenty-four officers of the sanctuary representing the twenty-four courses of the Levitical priests (1Chron24:4-5, 7-18), as well as twenty-four divisions of singers in the temple (1 Chron. 25).”

We see in both instances in Chronicles 24 was God’s choice to represent the Levitical priests and the Levitical singers.

Thus, 24 appears to be a representative number in Rev4 as the elders denote the church in heaven before God’s war council in preparation for the judgment of the world during the tribulation.


Only in one instance does an individual from the 24 elders act as an individual (REV5:5).

In this instance it is to speak as the interpreting person to tell John to stop weeping because no one was found to open the scroll.

The elder says, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”

Why is one of the 24 elders called upon to explain things to John?

One of the 24 elders is called upon, instead of an angel that normally explains things in Revelation, because they are the only ones within God’s throne-room that has personally experienced salvation.


Since John’s question relates to salvation, it was appropriate for a redeemed individual to note that the Lamb of God—Jesus—was the one qualified to open the scroll.

That scroll is the title deed to planet earth and if no one was able to open it then the redemption of earth and mankind could not have been carried out.

That is why John was weeping, because he knew that his destiny and that of all of humanity depended upon finding one qualified to open the scroll.



Since the 24 elders of Revelation represent the church in heaven, this means that the church—the body of Christ and His Bride—is complete, since she has received her rewards (i.e., the crowns) and is in a position of co-rulership with Christ (Rev3:21).

This depiction supports a pre-trib rapture because from a chronological perspective of Revelation 4 the events of the tribulation have yet to begin.

How do we know? We know because Revelation 5 presents the plan for tribulation judgment as contained in the scroll that only the Lamb is worthy to open.

Revelation 6 portrays the Lamb’s opening of each seal as the initiating cause of those judgments on earth.


This would mean that since all 19 seal, trumpet and bowl judgments are contained in the scroll then none of these events of the tribulation could have transpired in Revelation 4.

Therefore, if the church is in heaven before the tribulation then pretribulationism is supported by the notion that the 24 elders represent the church.


The reason the 24 elders cannot represent simply redeemed mankind as a whole, which would include Israel, is because the redemption of those people is not yet complete by Revelation 4.

The 24 elders cannot include tribulation saints, since their group of redeemed individuals is not complete until the second coming.

The same would be true of Israel. It would appear that tribulation saints are grouped with other Gentile believers down through history from Adam until the church and then the tribulation saints. Thus, they are not yet complete.


The church alone will be the only complete redeemed people group by the time Revelation 4 occurs in history.

This is why the 24 elders in heaven at this time support the church’s blessed hope of the pretribulational rapture. Maranatha!



jimmy lishman – Redeemed by HIS blood, not destined for wrath and expecting HIS calling shortly – “COME UP HERE”