Amy VanGerpen (7 Sep 2011)
"RE: Sherry Vance"

Hi Sherry,

The prophetic Scriptures are a funny thing.  On the one hand, we are told in Daniel that prophecy will be progressively revealed as we get closer to the time of their fulfillment.  In other words, there are parts we won't understand until the prophecy is near to fulfillment.  On the other hand, we need to be careful about our interpretations, so that we are in accord with other Christians who are also led by the Holy Spirit:

2 Peter 1:19-21 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Granted, some things the mainstream prophetic community teaches has been or is wrong.  But it seems that as we get closer to the time of fulfillment the mainstream tends to come around (i.e. Israel becoming a nation again - which by the way was spiritualized for centuries before literally coming to pass.  Also, the Psalm 83 war being prophetic has now become mainstream). 

There is also a huge problem with looking primarily for a spiritual meaning over a literal meaning (which if I understand correctly, you believe we should do with the whole New Testament).  Every interpretation becomes highly variable to each person or even small group of people as is the case with spiritualizing a Tribulation Temple.  I believe this goes against what is taught in 2 Peter 1. 

I also have a personal issue with the thought that my 7 year old son can't understand the New Testament.  I am very proud that he got 100% on his Bible curriculum in school last year.  And based on our own Bible study time as a family I am confident that he can grasp most of the Scriptures taken at their most literal, basic meaning.  I also believe God wouldn't make his Word hard enough that a child couldn't understand.  In fact, I once heard that the Bible was written at a 4th grade level. 

As for proving a 7 year Tribulation without using Daniel 9?  One only has to look at the numerous types and parallels throughout the Scriptures.  In fact, there is no type or parallel that I know of that points to a 3 1/2 year Tribulation, but there are many that point to a 7 year Tribulation.  Actually, I posted a great video here on Fivedoves on this very subject yesterday.  Here is the link again:

Also, you can check out the many types and parallels that point to a 7 year Tribulation on my own website:

Hope that helps!

Amy Van Gerpen

Sherry Vance
(6 Sep 2011)

"Reply to Amy VanGerpen (5 Sep 2011)"

Dear Amy;
I certainly did ask myself "how the Jews are going to see the "abomination of desolation" in order to escape as is directed by our Lord in the Olivet Discourse:"
But first I asked myself WHAT IS the "abomination of desolation going to BE in order that they see it?"  And even before that, how will they know it is about to happen? 
Luke 21:21-24 gives a pretty clear picture of what is about to happen: “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.   Can anyone say "International forces?"  Will not the "court without the temple" be trodden down by Gentiles during the great tribulation?
When "Jerusalem is surrounded by armies" (international peace-keeping troops, no doubt as part of a security plan for Israel while aiding and abetting the Palestinian factions) then the (false) peace promise is about to hit the fan! 
Matthew 24:15-21 holds one of those "warnings" I referred to.....sort of like saying Look, do you GET IT ?"  The words in Matthew:  "Whoever reads, let him understand", indicates a connection to Daniel's prophecy: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place....”   
So we go back to Daniel 11 to see what Jesus was referring to. There we read what occurred in history with the empires and nations who fought over control of the Holy Land.  Daniel 11 describes, in astounding detail, rulers who lived long after Daniel's prophecy.  For much of the prophecy these kingdoms were Syria to the north and Egypt to the south.  Eventually, the prophecy describes a ruler named Antiochus Epiphanes.  Antiochus Epiphanes is the prototype of the antichrist who will be revealed very shortly.  Antiochus came in peaceably - as will the antichrist.  Antiochus was said to have charm and 'manners' and came in with a great deal of "flattery" - as has Obama, called a 'great orator', messiah, annointed one, perceived as charismatic & 'charming' to many.  But after obtaining his place, Antiochus "swept away" all those who opposed him - as will the antichrist.  As Daniel 11:23-24 shows, the Jewish leadership made a 'league' (treaty) with Antiochus - just as Israel and the many will with the antichrist.  The history of that period shows that the 'league' or treaty was made "with the heathen that are "round about us."....just as the agreement will be with the Palestinians who are "round about Israel" (think Palestinian State.)  Antiochus soon betrayed the Jewish leaders ---- just as the antichrist will.  Daniel 11:31 shows what Antiochus did >>> "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation."  And then it happened > they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar of the temple with an image of the Greek god Zeus.
Now, with all of that as history, consider Jesus' warning about the abomination of desolation. When He gave it, this part of Daniel's prophecy been fulfilled almost 200 years earlier.  So Daniel's prophecy, according to Jesus, must have a dual fulfillment.
Antiochus Epiphanes was a forerunner, a prototype of the antichrist.  But there is one BIG difference.  The Old Testament dealt with the physical - the New Testament deals with the Spiritual. 
As I pointed out in a previous post, the Temple today is said to be a temple made without hands.  Jesus began building this temple of which He is the chief cornerstone. The end-time abomination will involve an idolatrous image/idol, as did the prototype, but the abomination of desolation will occur as an assault upon the holy place - upon the temple of God - those who have their testimony in Jesus.  I have to keep repeating - these are the "living sacrifices" which will cease when the antichrist kills them....and their oblations/prayers will cease.
I say all of this with the conviction that there will be no physical rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices.  I repeat what I said before - that God tore down the middle wall of partition when He rent the veil in the Temple in two.  He will not rebuild the middle wall of partition again since Jesus Christ was the FINAL Sacrifice.  The "holy place" is not in some man-made God-forsaken temple that the antichrist can sit or stand in.  The holy place is the heart and spirit of the Believer - whether they come to Jesus now before He returns, or after the Rapture when they will sacrifice themselves for their Faith in Him.
Amy, referring to Matthew 24:15-21, you said  "It would be very difficult for the Jews to try to decifer a spiritual meaning to this passage in order to be saved."  The point is, it isn't meant for them to spiritualize this passage!  This is a quite literal passage - they are being told to FLEE when they see an idol or image erected to a MAN whom they are being told to worship as god!!!  Their "salvation" at this point is a physical salvation to run as fast as they can out of there!  There is no way to ""spiritualize" this passage at all!  Yes, even a 7 year old would see that "it's time to head for the hills."
I can see you "have no doubt there will be a temple constructed before the middle of the tribulation."  That's because I can see that you still believe there will be a 7 year tribulation.  I keep asking people to show me where it says that in Scripture but so far no one has.  It's only an assumption based on two words in Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK."  The error is in thinking the confirming of the covenant kicks off the 70th WEEK.  It doesn't.  When the covenant is confirmed, the man of sin is already in a seat of authority but hasn't yet been revealed as the antichrist because satan has not yet been cast out of Heaven and hasn't empowered him yet. 
The 70th Week began just as the other 69 Weeks simply a passage of time - but with an appointed prophetic time set within it.  The years of the 70th Week are regular 365 day years.  A prophetic year is 360 days.  The appointed times within the 70th Week (1260 days/1290 days) are prophetic days running inside all the days of the 70th Week.  Those are just facts. 
I believe everything is in place now for the mid-Week events to proceed.  If none of it happens as we think between Rosh HaShanah 2011 and the spring, then we will have to deal with that when it comes. But for now, I see even the as-yet-unrevealed antichrist is ready to step up with confirming the covenant this Fall....and before Passover/Nissan/April the heavenly battle will begin, casting satan out of heaven.  Then the Seals are opened and the last half of the 70th Week - the time of Jacob's Trouble - really begins.  I expect, hope, and pray we will be out of here by spring at the very latest.  Come quickly Lord Jesus!
Shalom, Sherry Vance~