Barry Amundsen (16 Oct 2010)
"Harvy Troyer, How soon is "extremely imminent"?"
Hi Harvey Troyer,
You refer to the pre-trib WWIII as being "extremely imminent" and by this I assume you include our rapture in the same event but I was wondering what your definition of "extremely imminent" might be.
The reason I say that is because one of the sources you mention is David Flynn who I hold obviously in the highest regard. His knowledge is amazing but he has one conclusion that would make most of us here at the Doves uneasy, and that is he places the rapture at 2012 to coincide with the return of the watchers as they come down we go up...
Now some would still refer to this timing as "extremely imminent" but to me nah, I want sooner if possible. As much as I respect Flynn's knowledge, I always look for reasons to hope for him to be wrong on that point...
So, what sayest thou?
October 19, 2010
Dear Brother Barry,
Thank you for your insightful question. Please go to the Five Doves web postings for October 14, 2010 and click on Harvey Troyer to read my Emmaus Road Ministries Newsletter titled: The Rapture is Directly Linked to World War III. Please click the link at the bottom (PDF FILE).
On page 19, I make the following statement:
(The Pre-tribulation Rapture and outbreak of WW-III are definitely connected!)
The good news is that there certainly will be a Pre-tribulation Rapture and there is still time for the “fat lady” to sing as the saying goes in operas and sports arenas! In other words, the Rapture will happen right on time as YAHWEH, our God the Father planned and scheduled it long ago, and nothing and no one can stop it. Very few have really solved the mystery of exactly when and how the Rapture will actually occur. The above examples are only a very small sample of the many scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments, which portray this exact same scenario!
The Rapture has always been directly tied to the sudden outbreak of a great World War by fire also known as “The Great Day of the LORD”. I will show you why it has to be tied directly to the outbreak of World War III at the very beginning of the 7-Year Tribulation Period, and not Armageddon.
On pages 6 and 7, I state also state the following: The Pre-tribualtion Rapture can be found in almost every Bible Prophet’s description of the great end-time war scenario (the Day of the LORD/the Great Day of God’s Wrath/the Great and Dreadful Day of the LORD, etc). Again, almost all Bible Scholars fail to recognize the direct connection between the Rapture and the great World War (WW III) at the very beginning of the great tribulation period. Please read on!
On pages 24-27 I give my proposed scenario for the outbreak of World War III and the very imminent Pre-tribulation Rapture in 7 steps. Following are steps 3, 4, and 5 to that scenario.
3) An all out DESERT STORM WAR III (air war only) is launched against Iran’s Nuclear Sites by America, with Israeli backup support
Isaiah Chapter 21! (This will call for an immediate total RED ALERT in America because Russia has repeatedly warned the U.S. that if we or Israel attack Iran, then Russia will take out America in an all out nuclear attack). Please read Isaiah Chapter 21the Desert Storm Wars Chapter and PAY ATTENTION TO THE CHILLING VERSES 9AND 10.
NOTICE THAT IN
VERSE 9, BABYLON (AMERICA) FALLS SUDDENLY! IN VERSE 10, ISRAEL IS LEFT “CRUSHED ON THE THRESHING FLOOR” (reference to the Temple Mount) because Israel will no longer have the mighty United States of America to back her up and protect her from her vicious enemies who all want to annihilate her!
This is why I titled one of my “Newsletters Desert Storm War III—THE LYNCHPIN”? Things will unravel in rapid succession!
I believe that it is highly probable at this point that Israel will immediately launch an all out
PSALM 83ENEMIES attack against her “inner circle” neighbors as part of this scenario in which America (Babylon) falls.
(Please note that Iran (Elam and Media) and her allies will play a key role in “nuking America” according to
Isa 21:1-2, Isa 13:17, Jer 50:9, Jer 50:41-42, , Jer 51: 11-13 .) Jer 51: 28-29
4) When America and/or Israel attack Iran’s nuclear sites with Bunker Buster Mini-Nukes, then our (America and Israel’s) enemies will immediately start retaliating with nuclear and CNB missiles. Then World War III will spread rapidly. (THE RAPTURE OF ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS WILL HAPPEN HERE JUST AS THIS WAR GOES NUCLEAR AND AMERICA IS BURNED BY FIRE. WE WILL BE RESCUED AT THE VERY LAST HOUR!)
Ezekiel 38, 39Gog/Magog War follows America’s total destruction by fire!
On pages 30-32 I show you David Flynn’s proposed scenario how Antichrist’s coming at the End of WW III mimics Jesus Christ’s coming at Armageddon. Please notice that David Flynn has the Antichrist arriving at the beginning of the 7-Year Tribulation Period and at the end of the
Ezek 38, 39Gog/Magog War, with his “holy ones” aliens in UFO’s.
And Barry, you are right, David Flynn does not place a Pre-Tribulation Rapture connected to this great WW III as I do. WHY? I’m glad you asked. I have listened to quite a few hours of interviews of David Flynn with Steve Quayle, Tom Horn, etc and this is what I have heard him say and discuss. And let me quickly say that Rick Wiles, Nathan Leal and a multitude of people who are patriots and are into the “preparedness movement” believe this way. In fact, they constantly criticize and mock those of us who believe in a Pre-tribulation Rapture.
So here is what I have found to be the number one reason why David Flynn and a multitude of others do no believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. Please read Pages 7-11 or my newsletter. First, they do not understand
2 Thes 2:1-12concerning the arrival of the Antichrist. Please read my explanation. The second reason I will print out for you as follows.
TODAY THERE ARE MULTIPLIED MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE BECAUSE THEY ARGUE THAT THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT JESUS CANNOT, AND WILL NOT, COME UNTIL THE MAN OF SIN (THE ANTICHRIST) IS REVEALED (
II THES 2:3). FIRST OF ALL, THEY MAKE THIS ERROR BECAUSE THEY OVERLOOK THE ANSWER GIVEN IN II THES 2:7(SEE ABOVE). MAKE SURE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THIS! ALSO, PLEASE NOTICE THAT THE RAPTURE AND THE REVEALING OF THE ANTICHRIST ARE TIMED CLOSELY TOGETHER AND HAPPEN IN RAPID SUCCESION.
THE SECOND GREAT MISUNDERSTANDING THAT CAUSES MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS TO REJECT A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE IS THE TEACHING IN
REV 12:17, REV 13:7-8, AND DAN 7:21-25WHICH STATES THAT HE (THE ANTICHRIST) WILL MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS TO OVERCOME AND CONQUER THEM. THEY ASK, HOW CAN THE SAINTS BE RAPTURED TO HEAVAN PRE-TRIBULATION IF THE SAINTS ARE HERE ON EARTH DURING THE TRIBULATION PERIOD AND THE ANTICHRIST IS FIGHTING AGAINST THEM TO OVERCOME, CONQUER AND ANNIHILATE THEM?
THIS IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION! THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE. THIS PROBLEM WAS CAUSED IN THE FIRST PLACE BY THE OSAS (ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED) DOCTRINE OUT OF CALVIN AND THEODORE BEZA’S REFORMED THEOLOGY; WHICH IS A HYPER-GRACE, “IN SIN” GOSPEL, WHICH TEACHES THAT ALL “BELIVERS IN CHRIST” WILL BE RAPTURED. THE ANSWER IS THAT “IN SIN” CHRISTIANS WITH DEFILED ROBES OF CHRIST’S IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL BE LEFT BEHIND. AND REMEMBER THAT PAUL REFERED TO SUCH CARNAL CHRISTIANS AS SAINTS. THAT IS THE ANSWER!
Dear reader, if you want a comprehensive study on this topic please request and read my November/December ERMNL Booklet titled: Beheading—God’s Final Safety Net After Rapture. It gives the complete answer.
Are we reading the latest signs correctly and according to the Biblical Pattern of end-time events? Do we really understand the Rapture scenario pattern actually portrayed through- out the Bible?
The many who unwisely love to mock those of us who still believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture are now getting bolder, and more boisterously vocal every day.
[I recently heard the new term “vicious ignorance” used to describe the various forms of mocking the Pre-tribulation Rapture, that are now becoming so common. Many people are absolutely clueless as to what is happening in our world as we approach and rush into the tribulation period; and yet, they get very adamant and upset when confronted with the truth. The great Apostle Paul gave the following final warning after giving a key prophetic end-time revelation concerning the emergence of the Antichrist
onto the end-time world scene, and the Pre-tribulation Rapture of the saints:
1 Thes 5:19-20(NIV) 19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt.] Most of today’s popular Bible prophecy teachers have incorrectly taught people that the Rapture is not connected to any other sign or event; that it is not taught in the Old Testament; and that is has always been imminent and could happen at any time. These incorrect teachings have caused a lot of unnecessary confusion about the timing of the Rapture, which we will more thoroughly investigate for correct answers in this newsletter.
So Brother Barry, I have just attempted to show you the major reason why David Flynn and a multitude of others insist on Mid-Trib Rapture. And is it any wonder when so very few American Preachers even teach on end-time Bible Prophecy and almost all of those that do, insist that America is not even mentioned in the Bible.
Harvey Troyer (YBIC)
Emmaus Road Ministries