Shalom John, & Doves;
        As Phil Rogers opened his post with "I am still with you"....so I would like to say "I am still with you as well."  I'd like to comment on Phil Rogers post.  If some of you recall, I was always a staunch believer for a pre-tribulation rapture.  However, I have felt for a time now that we will be here for alot more than what we ever figured on.  But, that hasn't defeated, nor depressed me.  It has, believe it or not, more or less energized me to live better in the 'here & now.'   In fact, much of the reason for my ceasing to post on the Doves was because following one hope after another of a seemingly imminent rapture based on this or that event or 'sign', it only showed me that the Lord had planned alot more detail for "The Set Time" than the simplistic way I had looked at it......and, as a result, I felt I had nothing more to say.
   
     Well, now I feel it is imperative to back up what Phil Rogers is saying because his reasoning shows a direct bearing on why I changed my mind about the pre-trib rapture.  God did say, "Come, let us reason together, saith the Lord."   I will state right up front that I now believe the rapture will take place at the mid-point of the trib....and here's why>
    
     At the end of Phil's post, he asked three questions, which are clues for when the rapture CAN happen:
          1)  What is an Advocate?
        2)  Why do we need one?
        3)  When do we no longer need one?
  
     An Advocate is one who pleads for another.  Why do we  have need of an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ?  Because satan still has access to heaven and he is there accusing us of our sins day and night.  JESUS is our Advocate before the Father - pleading our case, pleading The Blood, HIS Blood, which covers our sins!  (Romans 8:34, "It is Christ who died and furthermore is also risen, who also makes intercession for us.")  He is our High Priest Who has made Atonement for us.
  
     So as long as we are alive on this earth, we are going to sin.  As long as we sin, Jesus remains our Advocate.  He will not leave "His post" UNTIL.....WHAT?  Do any of you SEE THE ONLY TIME  WHEN HE CAN LEAVE HIS POSITION AS OUR ADVOCATE while we are still alive down here???  Can you see that Jesus would not leave the throne room of heaven while satan still has access?
He will only leave His position as Advocate WHEN SATAN IS NO LONGER THERE TO ACCUSE US!  And just WHEN is that?
  
     Read Rev. 12:7-10> "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    In these verses, I believe we can see the whole picture of WHEN the rapture occurs:
          1)  war breaks out in heaven (just before the midpoint of the tribulation)
          2) Michael casts satan out of heaven - and if we reason that now Jesus no longer has to remain there at His post as Intercessor/Advocate, He is free to DESCEND, to call us up, for there is no longer an accusor - satan is cast out of heaven!
         
     But, note this: there is no mention in these verses of the power which will be granted to the antichrist through the indwelling of satan, in fact, INSPITE of this imminent scenario, we read, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ."  THIS IS WHEN JESUS DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT!   NOW - NOW!, is come OUR SALVATION, He will receive us, face to face, our STRENGTH, and we ARE the kingdom of God, His Believers, and the power of that kingdom is Christ Himself!   I believe this is the rapture!

     What Phil is reasoning and challenging you to see is this:  When satan is cast out of heaven and is no longer there accusing us, Jesus our Advocate & High Priest is free to leave His position and descend to receive us unto Himself; as I Thess. 4:16 states, "For the Lord HIMSELF will descend from heaven with a shout.....!"
    
     He isn't coming with angels to call us up, for the angels are doing battle in the heavens at that time, casting satan and his angels out.  But it is emphatically stated that He is coming HIMSELF - to rapture and resurrect those who are in Christ, dead and alive!   At that time we will no longer need an Advocate, so, as always, His timing is perfect! 
    
     Satan will be cast to the earth, there to receive power to indwell the antichrist, which will commence with God's wrath in sending, to those who are left on earth after the rapture, a strong delusion, to believe a lie, for they would not receive the Truth.
    
     There are other reasons which I believe confirm this timing of the rapture.  It appears that it will be almost simultaneous with the casting of satan out of heaven....which is not until Rev. 12, AFTER the seals have begun to be opened, AFTER the witnesses have shown up, AFTER the temple of God was opened in heaven, AFTER a great sign appears in heaven (the woman clothed with the sun, etc.) and it is THEN that war breaks out in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven ANY LONGER....."
    
     At this point is when I believe Jesus our Advocate descends from heaven with a shout and the rapture and resurrection of the saints take place....just before the final half of the trib and the great wrath of God is poured out on an unbelieving world.
   
     Scripture says we Believers "are not appointed unto wrath;" but I believe the true meaning of this is that God's "wrath" will never be experienced by Believers even though they may experience trials and tribulation in this world, for the true sense of wrath is separation from God - which the Believer will never experience....for NOTHING can separate us from Him (Romans 8:35), "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?  Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"  
     So, if you shrink back or shy away from believing that we may go through the first half of the trib and experience some of these things which are stated in Romans 8:35, then just remember "the rest of the story"...and the rest of the verse, "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.  For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
     Shalom,  Sherry Vance