Rowina (26 Nov 2011)
"Doves trying to figure out who are Jews"

Doves often try to explain who are "real Jews" and who are Jews "saying they are Jews who are not."
May I suggest that there is some truth in everyone's theory on this subject, but also a lot of rabbit holes
leading to secret doors in the earth...truth that no one can fully comprehend.

First of all, are Jews a "race", or more accurately an ethnic group?  Or are they composed of those
who accept the covenant of Abraham with God, and the ensuing affirmation of the covenant with Moses?

Here we get totally tangled.  Those who are "true Jews" began very early to be diluted by marriages to
gentiles, such as Ruth and Rehab.  Probably even before that there were intermarriages in Egypt, and not
all of the Jews of Egypt went with Moses; some went elsewhere (various stories about going to Greece
and Greek islands).  So the Jews began to disperse even before the famous dispersions to Babylon and
to the Caucasus.  The dilutions of the gene pool are accepted and celebrated in the Old Testament, long
before Jesus appeared.  The great celebration of the gentile conversion is in the Book of Ruth, but this is
not the only celebration of gentiles coming to the faith of Abraham.  Before Abraham BECAME a Jew,
Job celebrated God and declared that he would be raised from the dead by God.

In more modern times, we have the question of whether Khazarite converts are Jews.  It looks like there
were plenty of "real Jews" in Khazaria before the alleged mass conversion, most of these being Jews who
were forced into the Caucasus by the first great dispersion at the hands of the Assyrians, who took away
the "ten northern kingdoms," giving rise in our day to theories about the Lost Ten Tribes, who went eventually
across to Europe and became the Northern Europeans and Americans.  It seems to me just on thinking about
what little history we have of this mass migration that these Khazarites were hybrids of "real Jews" and people
they met along the way, but if they accepted the Abrahamic covenant, were they "false Jews" because their
genes were "impure"?  I suspect they were not false if they really accepted the covenant, rather than being
forced to do so, and here we have left only what the "heart" decides for each individual and family group.

the Southern Kingdom, between the two great dispersions of Jews, was the home of Judah, Benjamin,
and Levi, but I believe the stories of modern historians such as Chuck Missler that northerner who wanted
to follow God removed themselves to the Southern Kingdom and became part of "Judah".  All the twelve
tribes are thus represented in the South.  They are all Jews even if their origins were not in Judah, Benjamin
and Levi.

But besides the great migration of Jews to the caucasus and on to Europe, there was a more southern
migration of Jews who went through Africa to Spain and on to Ireland and Scotland.  This
"westernization" of Jews went on for many generations, starting long before the day of Jeremiah,
but Jeremiah made it famous by taking the last offspring of Zedekiah to Egypt and then to Spain and
Ireland.  He took the daughters of Zedekiah there, and on the way to Ireland one of the daughters
married a descendant of Judah who was already a prince among the Irish Jewish diaspora.  Together
they ruled from Tara.  The English royal family declare their descent from King David primarily from
THIS southern-route diaspora, although they have other Jewish descents from the "continent" of Europe.
This is where the Harp of David came to be an Irish symbol and to inhabit the symbology of the British
royals as well.  Prominent among the lines which came into the royal family of England are those "Irish"
with the Harp of David who moved on to Scotland and founded the so-called "Stuart" dynasty.  The subject
of where the "Stuarts" originated is shrouded in mystery, but I have even read an account of a "Stuart"
living in France, before the time of William the Conqueror, who took his newborn son to Scotland to be
baptized at what he considered the headwaters of his clan, a monastery in Scotland (was it Paisley,
was it Melrose, I do not remember).

From studying as best I could, from bits and pieces of legends and history, this story is hard to follow,
perhaps deliberately so, a great mystery, with many rabbit holes leading one astray.  Are there any
"true Jews" in either the northern migrations or the southern?  I believe there are, but among them there
are the "genes" of gentiles who were absorbed.

With modern genealogy studies we can now begin to understand these migrations of Jews, and pinpoint
to a certain extent where they came from and where they went.  We have not only the DNA studies which
have identified Levites descended directly from Aaron, but we have the study of mitochondrial DNA which
produces "haplogroups", and identifies people whose material descent is from the Middle East (from
what we call Israel today, from Arabia, and from the Caucasus where they were exiled).  This haplogroup,
J1C, is more prominent in today's Ireland than in any other European country.  It stands at 11%, according
to genetic studies I have read online.   It may be that my Irish mother, who was Irish on both sides for
generations, both in the Old Country and in America, is more "Jewish" by "genes" than Netanyahu.  

But in that last statement I exaggerate shamefully, because my mother, even with her maternal J1C,
is a product of intermarriage between dispersed Jews and all the other ethnicities which flowed into
Ireland over the millennia, including the Vikings who brought their red hair.  My mother looked Spanish
(dark) as did her sister Ann, but her brothers had pale skin and flaming red hair, showing in one family
the effect of a varied gene pool.

I'm getting far afield, but it was only because of interest in my own genetics that I happened onto
all these tidbits of knowledge about the migration patterns of "Jews".  Since my dad's Scots line is
full of Jews as well as Flemings, Anglo-Saxons, and Hungarians, I can say I'm Jewish from both sides.
Gerlinda would say I am thus "impure" in my descent, like everyone who surrounded the Noah family.
I think that is what she would say, but those of us who think about these things do come to our opinions
from a variety of sources; it is almost impossible to say who is exactly right.  We all have a shred of the truth.

So in the question currently being batted around on Doves of who the l44,000 Jewish virgins might be,
I think I agree with JohnB that they come from a variety of sources over millennia; they include
messianic Jews as well as the non-messianic Jews; they include gentile Christians who worship the God of
Abraham and are of "northern" descent; but I would add they include Christians whose forefathers took
the southern Jewish route to the English speaking countries of today.  The two forks of Ezekiels's
branch are already living together in the modern world, and typically they are fighting over it.  

Only the Messiah can stop this war, while stopping the other wars which are looming

I anticipate that those who read these words will have various reactions.  I don't offer them with
completely knowledge, which will only arrive when Jesus comes.