Keith C (12 Nov 2011)
"Kevin Heckle"


Hi Kevin

I enjoy your enthusiasm, and you’ve made a fine defense of your position.  Not that I agree with any of it, but I appreciate your thoughtful response. 

I’d like to respond to your entire post, but unfortunately, it appears that our theologies differ greatly, and frankly it would just take too long to address each an every difference – and ultimately, even if you read it, I doubt that you would be persuaded.

 

I will respond to your first sentence, and if you’re still interested, maybe we can pursue it further.

 

You said: Clearly, the Scripture itself declares it a letter from John to the seven Churches which are in Asia, by which we modern Christians descended.

 

1. “…the Scripture itself declares…”

If that is the standard by which we are going to base our discussion on “…Scripture itself declares…” then I return to my original post from the book of Daniel where scripture very clearly declares that 70 weeks are for “thy people” and “upon thy holy city”. 

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

It’s a period of 70 weeks determined upon the Jews.  Even if it’s broken 7,000 individual segments, it’s still a period of 70 weeks, determined upon the Jews.

The “Church” didn’t exist at the time of Daniel, had no part in the first 69 weeks, and won’t have any part in the 70th week.  It’s not about the Church.  It’s all about the Jews.  (And even if there is only 3-1/2 minutes left of the 70 years, those 3-1/2 minutes are still determined upon the Jews and Jerusalem)

 

2. “…a letter from John to the seven Churches which are in Asia…”

Scholars agree that all 7 of these Churches were in modern day Turkey, and don’t really exist today.  I find it difficult, if not impossible - that a person could make a serious argument that modern Christians are somehow a “spiritual” members of one (or more) of these 7 churches.  I say a “spiritual” member, because apparently there are not very many “literal” members.  If we are spiritual members of one of these churches, then let me ask – at what point did we become members?  When we accepted Jesus?  Ok, lets run with that idea and see where it leads.  Lets say that I fall to my knees and accept Christ.  And I’m suddenly the newest “spiritual” member of the church of Laodicea – a moment later I get the news that God is going to spew me out?

Rev 3:15  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 3:16  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

One might ask – is there some kind of probationary period?  Does everybody that gets saved suddenly become a member of Laodicea?  Maybe we get to chose which church we become “spiritual” members of.  I suspect that the Philadelphia church will be thriving, while the others not so much.

The reason that I’m hammering this home is because of your position that Revelation is written to “the Church”, implying all the people who have accepted Jesus as their savior starting at the Pentecost following the resurrection up to the rapture.  Hermeneutics states that when the plain sense make common sense, seek no other sense.  John was given a message to pass on to a church – in fact, he was given 7 messages to pass on to 7 churches.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

3. by which we modern Christians descended…”

You are simply wrong.  Modern Christianity did not descend from the 7 churches that John speaks of.  Modern Christianity is easily traced back to a church in Rome, started by Peter, the apostle of Jesus.  The first 1500 years or so of modern Christianity was primarily catholic, the majority being Roman Catholic.  The Protestant reformation in the early 1500’s birthed the rest of “modern Christians”.

 

Best regards,

Keith