John B (26 Nov 2011)
"Re: Gerlinda, Barry Amundsen"


Gerlinda,
 
You do bring up a good point.............and I don't think we know for sure how genetically pure these 144k will have to be to qualify for those that are picked. Like I said before only God knows the "greatly expanded" family tree from the original 12 tribes and who He considers as pure descendants and virgins. One could conclude that His definition of virgins is in Rev.14:4 when He states...."These are the ones that were not defiled with women, for they are virgins." This would appear to refer to males but it seems to me that if a woman did not defile herself by lying with another woman (or a male) that women may qualify as well...??
 
On another note, after reading the post by Barry Amundsen, I realized that I was not using the word Jew or Jewish correctly. Thank you Barry for the correction. When referring to the 144k I referred to them as Jewish and I should have referred to them as "children of Israel" from the 12 tribes. Here's Barry's well stated explanation.......
 
On the subject of the 144,000 “Jews” I would simply like to point out that they are not called Jews in the Bible but of the tribes of Israel and there is a big difference. Jews are descended from Judah but also included Benjamin. All the other tribes of Jacob were never known as Jews but kept their individual tribal identifications. The only tribe that was present in Jesus’ day in New Testament territories besides Judah and Benjamin was Levi who joined the other two tribes in order to be where the temple was after the split of the two kingdoms under Rehoboam (Judah) and Jeroboam (Israel). This is why Jesus encounters Levites who are mentioned as such but never anyone from other tribes such as Naphtali or Asshur or Zebulun or Dan or Reuben etc. Yet those other tribes were in existence and I believe they were the commonwealth of Great Britain and eventually would include the USA. It is these people dwelling in “Islands” called Israelites who are addressed by Isaiah so often as God’s people but who were for a time losing their identity as such and in the new place where they were long known as “not My people” there they would become known as “Children of God”. (By the way, God and King James translators know the difference between Islands and coast lands and they are not interchangeable.) The stories of their plight have long been told in the stories (neither Disney nor the Brothers Grimm wrote these stories but they were passed down for generations and remain in only our heritage) such as Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs, or Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, or Hansel and Gretel
 
Seems like everyone refers to them as Jews like you would Catholics or Muslims or Hindu's but to be technically correct in referring to the 144k that term (Jews) was used too loosely and is not accurate. I stand corrected.
 
John B
 
Gerlinda (25 Nov 2011)
"John B - Re: Soon"


Hello John, 
 
I just finished reading your post but since I have little time to write today, I want to merely say that you provoked a thought concerning that 144,000 Virgin Jews and who they may be.  In the dictionary, it refers to the word 'virgin' as mainly used for females.  Through-out the Bible, the word Harlot is used for those Jews that, not only took up the pagan ways but also inter-married, defiling their blood-line.....these were both male and female.  So, could it be possible that this word "Virgin" is speaking of 12,000 genetically pure Jews from each tribe?  I believe that these days, when so much is now being learned about the importance of the blood-line being kept pure that it is not a stretch of the imagination.  Noah wasn't just a "righteous -good" man, he was much more.  The flood destroyed all those that had defiled themsleves except for only Noah and his family of 7 genetically pure who had NOT defiled their blood...in other words, they were gentic virgins.  Satan and his fallen angels continue to try to stop God's plan for Israel.   He did it before the flood and again after. 
 
There is no doubt but Jewish blood has been mingled with gentile blood through-out history.  Like it has been pointed out before.....most do not even know about their Jewish roots.  However, they are not Genetically Virgin Jews, are they?  Only God knows who they were in days of old, now and near future.
 
What do you think?
 
gerlinda 
 
 

John B (24 nov 2011) 'Re: Soon"
Soon,
 
As God knows every hair on your head he also knows the lineage of every Jewish tribe from their origins until the present time. The family tree (so to speak) of all the twelve tribes from their inception until the present. They have specific DNA and God made a covenant with them first and it appears He will harvest 12,000 virgins from every one of these twelve tribes to be His first fruits and to be His personal entourage with His name written on their foreheads. In my opion He will choose the "cream of the crop" from all of the recorded Jewish history.
 
You asked if it was possible that the 144k were composed of youth from both Jews and gentiles. My answer would be no, in that God was very specific in the description of these 144k in Rev.7:5-8 as being specifically from the twelve "Jewish" tribes and highlighted this by listing all twelve by name. As I mentioned in my prior article, considering the limited number of Jews present today on the planet and the moral climate we live in, it seems like a stretch that we could find 12k virgins from all of the twelve tribes listed in Revelation 7. That's why I believe that at the rapture not only are the Christ believing gentiles and messianic Jews resurrected from their graves but also the non messianic Jews (as per Ezek.37). And God will have had centuries of Jews to pick His entourage of 144k as His first fruits. No doubt some of His picks will be from those who are alive today.
 
You mentioned that we (gentiles) were grafted into God's tree (so to speak) when we accepted Jesus Christ and imply that somehow that makes us Jews. I disagree. Just like you can graft different varieties of apples onto a host tree it doesn't mean they loose their individual characteristics. They maintain their individual attributes and both receive their sustenance from the host tree and its roots. In like manner, we as Gentiles in accepted Jesus Christ were grafted into God's tree along with the Jews that were already there. Now this gave (we) the gentiles a path to salvation that we never had. But again, we are separate and distinct from the Jews.
 
Actually there are four distinct groups to acknowledge (and three separate outcomes but that's a story for another day)
1) The original and present Jews who had and have a unique, special and separate covenant relationship with God and as per Ezek.37 will be resurrected and maintain said covenant forevermore.
2) Messianic Jews. These include Paul and the most of the apostles, many or most of the original church (for centuries) and the messianic Jewish converts of the latter years.
3) Gentiles (all non Jews) who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior
4) Gentiles who have not accepted Jesus Christ
 
Hope this answers some of your questions..........it's an abbreviated version of a long and complex story
Blessings........John B