John and Doves,
So if we understand the context of the
first seal, it was broken about 33 AD. In fact, all the first 5 seals
were broken one after another in 33 AD. There is NO HINT of a delay between
seals, UNTIL we get to seal number 5: the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was
one of the first martyrs there.
wonder that the angel told John the Revelator,
"Do not seal up the prophetic words you have written,
for the time is near." Revelation 22:10
seals were contemporaneously being opened, then the Church is not only an
hiccup in the book of Revelation,
Church is also an hiccup with respect to the seven Moeds.
Lyle Cooper (12 Nov
"Donna Cothran (11
Re: Donna Cothran (11 Nov 2010)
Who are those under the altar? What is the 5th seal all
To get the correct answer, we must back up to the first seal,
and get the seals IN CONTEXT.
What is the context of the first seal?
It is the vision of the throne room. God reveals the timing in this
vision, if we read it carefully. First, this vision was seen by John around 95
AD. Look at these verses:
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit
thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up
stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing
on the right hand of God,
Which he wrought in
Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right
hand in the heavenly places
If ye then be risen
with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the
right hand of God.
Who being the brightness of his
glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the
word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the
right hand of the Majesty on high:
Now of the things
which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is
set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the
But this man, after he had offered one
sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of
from these scriptures (there are several more) that when Jesus ascended, He
went to be at the Father's right hand. In fact, Stephen SAW Him
Yet, when John saw the vision of the throne room, in chapter 4,
JESUS WAS NOT THERE AT ALL, much less at the Father's right hand? WHY
was Jesus not there?
Next, we see a search was made for one worthy to
break the seals, and John got to see that search. John saw that the search
ENDED and it ended in failure, for John wept and wrote that NO MAN
WAS FOUND. If we read ahead, we find out WHO could be
5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to
open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by
thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
then, that ONLY the Redeemer could be worthy to break the seals.
Yet in a search that John watched, (in a vision) in 95 AD, NO
MAN WAS FOUND. Why?
If we keep reading, we see that the Holy Spirit was
there IN the throne room.
And out of the throne proceeded
lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire
burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Yes, Jesus said, when He went up He would send the Holy Spirit
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is
expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you
must ask, WHY is the Holy Spirit here?
Now we have three questions:
1) Why was Jesus not
seen at the right hand of the Father?
2) Why was "no man found?"
was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room?
The answer to these
questions is TIMING. In this vision God is showing John TIMING and the
movement of time. For example, John watched as the search for one worthy was
done: first in heaven, then on earth, then under the earth. That shows the
movement of time.
When John first saw the throne, Jesus was NOT THERE.
But later, AFTER John watched this search that ended in failure, and another
search started, suddenly SOMEONE WAS FOUND.
John looked and suddenly
that was SOMEONE NEW in the throne room: a lamb, having been
John saw the very moment that Jesus ascended into heaven,
after telling Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended. This
explains why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father: He was on the
earth, perhaps in the grave. This explains why "no man was found." He had not
yet risen and had not yet become the Redeemer. In other words, John was
seeing a vision of the PAST! A vision of about 33 AD. And it explains why
the Holy Spirit was there: Jesus had not yet ascended.
Then, after John
saw Jesus arrive in the throne room, having just risen from the dead, Jesus
went straight over to the Father and got the scroll! There are NO 2000 years
there to be found. The moment Jesus got the scroll into His hands, He began to
break the seals.
So if we understand the context
of the first seal, it was broken about 33 AD. In fact, all the first 5
seals were broken one after another in 33 AD. There is NO HINT of a delay
between seals, UNTIL we get to seal number 5: the martyrs of the church age.
Stephen was one of the first martyrs there.
They cried out, HOW
LONG before they could be avenged.
Question: if they had only to wait 7
years, why cry out how long? But, if they had to wait 2000 years, then indeed,
their question is very understandable. And they were told that they must
So here is the first hint of a wait in the breaking of the
seals. HOW LONG must they wait? Until the final (last) martyr of the
church age. What will make this happen? Of course, the END of the church age.
That will happen with the rapture of the church. The rapture will take
place as the first event of the 6th seal, which we see is the VERY NEXT EVENT
John writes about.
9And when he
had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were
slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it
was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth
We see NO HINT that these were killed by the Beast. In
fact, John as NOT YET even opened the 70th week much less got to the mid point
of the week, when the Beast is made manifest.
So it is very plain and
simple: these are martyrs of the church age, NOT people killed by the
You were MIXING UP two stories: those under the alter and
the great crowd - too large to number - seen in chapter
9 After this I beheld,
and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and
kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the
Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the
throne, and unto the Lamb.
These are NOT MARTYRS. There is not
one hint that they were murdered or martyred. Rather, they have been
RAPTURED. They are not under the altar, they are in front of the
So a careful study will prove that these are TWO DIFFERENT
groups of people. Those under the altar are the martyrs of the church age.
People are being added to this group on a daily