Michael Colunga (13 Nov 2010)
"RE:Lyle Cooper, RE: Donna Cothran (11 Nov 2010)"

 
Hello, John and Doves,
 
Lyle, you said,
    So if we understand the context of the first seal, it was broken about 33 AD. In fact, all the first 5 seals were broken one after another in 33 AD. There is NO HINT of a delay between seals, UNTIL we get to seal number 5: the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was one of the first martyrs there.
 
No wonder that the angel told John the Revelator,
    "Do not seal up the prophetic words you have written, for the time is near."  Revelation 22:10
 
If the seals were contemporaneously being opened, then the Church is not only an hiccup in the book of Revelation,
the Church is also an hiccup with respect to the seven Moeds.
 
In HaShem,
Mike C.
 
Lyle Cooper (12 Nov 2010)
"Donna Cothran (11 Nov 2010)"


Re: Donna Cothran (11 Nov 2010)

Who are those under the altar? What is the 5th seal all about?

To get the correct answer, we must back up to the first seal, and get the seals IN CONTEXT.

What is the context of the first seal? It is the vision of the throne room. God reveals the timing in this vision, if we read it carefully. First, this vision was seen by John around 95 AD. Look at these verses:

Matthew 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Acts 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Ephesians 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places

Colossians 3:1
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 8:1
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


We see from these scriptures (there are several more) that when Jesus ascended, He went to be at the Father's right hand. In fact, Stephen SAW Him there.

Yet, when John saw the vision of the throne room, in chapter 4, JESUS WAS NOT THERE AT ALL, much less at the Father's right hand? WHY was Jesus not there?

Next, we see a search was made for one worthy to break the seals, and John got to see that search. John saw that the search ENDED and it ended in failure, for John wept and wrote that NO MAN WAS  FOUND.  If we read ahead, we find out WHO could be worthy.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
We see then, that ONLY the Redeemer could be worthy to break the seals.


Yet in a search that John watched, (in a vision) in 95 AD, NO MAN WAS FOUND. Why?

If we keep reading, we see that the Holy Spirit was there IN the throne room.

Rev 4:5
 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


Yes, Jesus said, when He went up He would send the Holy Spirit down:

John 16:7
 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you


So we must ask, WHY is the Holy Spirit here?

Now we have three questions:

1) Why was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father?
2) Why was "no man found?"
3) Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room?


The answer to these questions is TIMING. In this vision God is showing John TIMING and the movement of time. For example, John watched as the search for one worthy was done: first in heaven, then on earth, then under the earth. That shows the movement of time.

When John first saw the throne, Jesus was NOT THERE. But later, AFTER John watched this search that ended in failure, and another search started, suddenly SOMEONE WAS FOUND.

John looked and suddenly that was SOMEONE NEW in the throne room: a lamb, having been slain.

John saw the very moment that Jesus ascended into heaven, after telling Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended. This explains why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father: He was on the earth, perhaps in the grave. This explains why "no man was found." He had not yet risen and had not yet become the Redeemer. In other words, John was seeing a vision of the PAST! A vision of about 33 AD. And it explains why the Holy Spirit was there: Jesus had not yet ascended.

Then, after John saw Jesus arrive in the throne room, having just risen from the dead, Jesus went straight over to the Father and got the scroll! There are NO 2000 years there to be found. The moment Jesus got the scroll into His hands, He began to break the seals.

So if we understand the context of the first seal, it was broken about 33 AD. In fact, all the first 5 seals were broken one after another in 33 AD. There is NO HINT of a delay between seals, UNTIL we get to seal number 5: the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was one of the first martyrs there.

They cried out, HOW LONG before they could be avenged.

Question: if they had only to wait 7 years, why cry out how long? But, if they had to wait 2000 years, then indeed, their question is very understandable. And they were told that they must WAIT.

So here is the first hint of a wait in the breaking of the seals. HOW LONG must they wait? Until the final (last) martyr of the church age. What will make this happen? Of course, the END of the church age. That will happen with the rapture of the church. The rapture will take place as the first event of the 6th seal, which we see is the VERY NEXT EVENT John writes about.

Rev 6:9-12
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,


We see NO HINT that these were killed by the Beast. In fact, John as NOT YET even opened the 70th week much less got to the mid point of the week, when the Beast is made manifest.

So it is very plain and simple: these are martyrs of the church age, NOT people killed by the Beast.


You were MIXING UP two stories: those under the alter and the great crowd - too large to number -  seen in chapter 7.

Rev. 7:9-10
 9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


These are NOT MARTYRS. There is not one hint that they were murdered or martyred. Rather, they have been RAPTURED. They are not under the altar, they are in front of the throne!!

So a careful study will prove that these are TWO DIFFERENT groups of people. Those under the altar are the martyrs of the church age. People are being added to this group on a daily basis.

Lyle