Bob Anderson (31 May 2015)
"RE: RE: "Law -vs.- Grace: faith + works -vs. grace thru faith ; why Revelation ch. 1-3 is not for us"


Hi Alan,

Good post, minority opinion. But, you are in good company. In his Commentary on Revelation Bullinger makes exactly the same point, going so far as to label Revelation as an instruction book for the Jews of the tribulation. Yes, he ID's the seven churches as "synagogues" (assemblies), in this case of Christ is Messiah believing Jews. He flatly states and proves that the book of REVELATION has NOTHING to do with us, the Church. You are in lockstep with long time radio/TV Bible teacher Les Feldick and with Don Samdahl of DOCTRINE.ORG  (outstanding site!). GOOGLE any of the preceding for more info.

Now, here is the BIGGIE! Given the preceding, given the following comment you made, are you willing to consider that the BRIDE of Christ is NOT the Church?

"The timing of Rev.1-3 MUSt be during the tribulation or addressed to 1st century Jews and their churches..the fact that the churches are outside Israel is  significant, but for another post. AND  it has to be addressed to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, since this is on the heels of the dispersion into asia and elsewhere. Also is the fact that The Lord promised to bring Israel back into the land from every corner of the earth..this is pertinant to what is being addressed here."

Maranatha,

Bob


Alan T (24 May 2015)
"RE: "Law -vs.- Grace: faith + works -vs. grace thru faith ; why Revelation ch. 1-3 is not for us"


 
All Doves and pastor Bob,
    Thank you Pastor Bob for your Post of " Law verses grace", and while this I believe is the canary in the coalmine that cements once and for all the doctrine of " Once saved always saved" for us in this dispensation of the grace of God, I believe that it creates more doctrinal conundrums for some of the prior posts by Pastor Bob, implying that some degree of works and efforts are warranted for us to retain salvation. I would like to present some verses that throw a monkeywrench into this presumption once and for all.
    Paul makes some bold claims and proclamations about our standing in Christ that I believe cannot be disregarded or nullified by other seemingly contradictory verses elsewhere.

Now that we see the church, Jews and Gentiles, morphing into a church of no national significance, lets look at the conditions.

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Ro.11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



   Now for more confirmation .


Ro. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


  Now that we have established eternal security, look at some contrary statements not directed toward us. We have established that works neither justify nor qualify us, only Jesus' imputed righteousness and his Spirit.


Now Faith + works

Let's look at doctrine that requires baptism, good works, perseverance, continual repentance and endurance...doctrine for early acts jews and proselytes AND) ( tribulation saints...note the parenthesis. Pastor Bob has demonstrated tirelessly the truth of the church age being a comma or parenthesis in God's overall plan.


Heb.10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Heb. 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


And finally, after seeing the obvious contrary doctrine between grace and works, we go to revelation, where Jesus is speaking to a Jew , John the beloved, about churches that are unquestionably jewish in either the 1st century, and/ or the tribulation yet future.These churches can ONLy be jewish, leading to salvation those who bless Israel, obey the Lord, and observe the ordinances of salvation..baptism, repentance, good works, endurance, etc. 


Rev. 2:    23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Rev.3:

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


The timing of Rev.1-3 MUSt be during the tribulation or addressed to 1st century Jews and their churches..the fact that the churches are outside Israel is  significant, but for another post. AND  it has to be addressed to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, since this is on the heels of the dispersion into asia and elsewhere. Also is the fact that The Lord promised to bring Israel back into the land from every corner of the earth..this is pertinant to what is being addressed here.


This should put to rest the confusion as to the parenthetical nature of God's dispensations, and the references that jump from past to future and past again. When John appears in revelation he has transcended time and jumped 2,000 plus years into the future after the rapture. It is undeniable. The focus is on the establishment of the kingdom from then on..the millennial reign. The reference to the book of life in Rev. 3:5 is a white throne judgement reference a thousand years afterward, and obviously pertains to those killed in the tribulation that repent and do not survive to and enter the millennial kingdom.


This should dissuade any further confusion of who is addressed here.


In truth and Love, 

Alan T