To All Doves,I read a book by Marvin Rosenthal who at one time was a pre tribulation believer of over 30 years and a head of a large missionary outreach to the country of Israel the book is Titled The PREWRATH RAPTURE of the church.Has anyone read it and would like to share your thoughts with me?My e mail is email@example.comThank you!Pre-Wrath Rapture :By Phillip HinderlieFor Fair Use Discussion and Education
By Phillip Hinderlie:
A pre-wrath harpazo occurs anytime before the wrath of God is poured out. Our gathering together with Him 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, is the subject of our not being appointed to wrath in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11. Luke 21:29-36 is our passage of escape through Christ catching us away. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 also limits our gathering to Christ after the abomination of desolation. This limits the timing of the harpazo between the abomination of desolation and the day of the Lord. This pre-wrath harpazo is the belief that I hold as far as timing goes. (Note that I do not believe that we know the day or hour of the harpazo, and therefore I do not set dates on the harpazo. I do believe we know much about the dates around it though, more on that in the History, Our Future Bible Studies) I will explain with scripture and clear definitions why I believe in a pre-wrath harpazo. In all your study and research, don't take my word for it, but hold yourselves to the same standards as those whom God called noble. Acts 17:11
The Harpazo and the Day of the Lord
The beginning of the day of the Lord is the wrath of God, which comes after the sixth seal (Joel 2:31) and is contained within the seven trumpets and seven bowls/vials. Since the timing of the pre-wrath harpazo is centered on this beginning of God's wrath I'll begin there.
2 Peter 3:8-10
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The heavens passing away and the earth being burned up happen at the end of the millennium since Christ rules the earth for 1,000 years. Since a day is as a thousand years to the Lord, and this is the day of the Lord, then I believe this passage is telling us the day of the Lord is 1,000 years long. It is in this "day" that the earth is burned up. Notice in verse 10 it says, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away..." It is within the day of the Lord that the heavens pass away with a great noise, but the day of the Lord is 1,000 years, the destruction doesn't come until the end of Christ's rule and the destruction of this heavens and earth for the creation of the new after the great white throne judgment.
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
There are many more scriptures describing the day of the Lord I won't go into here, but it is clearly God's wrath. We know that at the harpazo we meet the Lord in the air when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 In order to meet the Lord in the air, we must be caught up to Him when He arrives, which is directly connected to the time that God's wrath comes to which we are not appointed and the day of the Lord.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
To me, this states that we don't know the day or hour of His coming, but when He does, it will be followed by God's wrath. Like Noah's day when the people had warning but no faith, so too is God's coming wrath disregarded in today's world and life is expected to continue on as before. 2 Peter 3:1-7 However, the day of the Lord is sudden destruction and comes like a thief in the night. Just as in Noah's day, it wasn't until the rains started that they pounded on the door to be let in but the door God shut no man could open. This is what we see in Matthew 25:1-13 with the five foolish virgins who will be cast into great tribulation except they repent of their deeds. Revelation 2:22 I believe this connects Christ's coming for His bride and the bride's harpazo to the marriage of the Lamb with the day of the Lord, the day of Christ. I further believe scripture places the timing of that harpazo before God's wrath. Luke 17:24-37 also associates the sign of the Son of man with the sudden destruction of Noah, but also that of Lot. From Matthew 24:36-39 and Luke 17:24-37, we can see the following.
They = Unbelievers outside the ark (place of protection above the destruction)
Noah & Family = Believers protected inside the ark
Flood = God's wrath/destruction from Almighty = day of the Lord
Door = transition portal from place of destruction to place of protection/escape. Christ is our door. John 10:6-11
The unbelievers are living their lives as normal. Even though Noah and family have been warning of the coming flood and destruction, they are ignored and scoffed at. This continues in the same way until the day that Noah enters the ark. God Himself shuts the door to the ark. He also said that the door to heaven cannot be opened or shut by man, only God. We can see the transition of Noah and his family through the door to the place of protection and escape from the destruction and God shuts the door. The floods then come and destroy the earth.
At the harpazo, the door to escape will be shut. Matthew 25:1-13 Those who were unprepared or lacked desire to go meet the bridegroom figuratively (no personal relationship with Christ) will be shut out from the door just like those at the flood were as the waters rose. I think the comparison fits quite nicely between the flood and harpazo and shows that the harpazo comes around the same time, but just before, God's wrath comes. We escape through the door at the harpazo just before the wrath comes on all them that dwell on the whole earth. When the door to the ark Noah and family were in was shut, the destruction came.
This eliminates a pre-trib harpazo since the wrath of God doesn't come until after the sixth seal, which is "immediately after" the time of Jacob's trouble. The time of Jacob's trouble began with the abomination of desolation. This is in agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and the placement of the coming of the Lord at the day of Christ with sudden destruction. So if the association of our escape and God's wrath coming almost simultaneously is correct as scripture says, then the harpazo couldn't very well be that far before God's wrath because that's not what the association between the days of Noah and the coming of the Son of man says.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
This passage eliminates a post-trib harpazo because we are removed from God's wrath through the door BEFORE it comes. Therefore, the only real possibility is exactly what scripture states, a pre-wrath harpazo of the bride. Since it can't be before the tribulation and can't be after it either, it must be a mid-trib harpazo. We see here the same sequence of removal through the door to the place of escape before the wrath of God arrives. Otherwise, their fate would have been the same as the unbelievers.
The day of the Lord and the Sixth Seal
Since the people of earth continue getting married and living life like normal until the sudden destruction comes, the fact that they are quoted as recognizing God's wrath in the sixth seal should be a big indicator that the day of the Lord is at hand at the sixth seal. The only thing between the sixth seal and the trumpets are the seventh seal, ½ hour of silence in heaven. Then the censer is cast to the earth and the trumpets begin. I believe the sixth seal and censer/first trumpet will occur on the same day, suddenly.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
What firms up my belief in a pre-wrath harpazo from that point is Revelation 7:9, which is the fulfillment of the promise to stand before the Son of man in Luke 21:34-36! Notice that this is placed between the sixth seal and the trumpets. It is the first time we see a vision of heaven with countless multitudes of all languages tribes, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb. The 24 elders and the four beasts are there too, so we know its in heaven. We can see the multitudes in heaven standing before the throne and before the Lamb after the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-17, and before the seventh, Revelation 8:1,2.
A short video clip by John Ankerberg was just shared with me that calls into question the multitude of Revelation 7:9 being related to the harpazo. I'm going to be doing some more study on this matter, but wanted to add the information here. Video clip
Basically, if those in white robes in the vision are they that came out of the great tribulation, what about those who died in the Lord before the time of great tribulation began? Are they then not part of this group in white robes before the throne?
My thought is that this is not the only passage that leads me to believe we are caught up at the day of the Lord. Beyond the vision of the multitude in heaven before the seventh seal is broken, there is also Luke 21:34-36, which promises the escape of those worthy, watching and praying.
There is also Revelation 3:10 regarding the keeping from the hour of temptation (putting to proof) that I believe is related to Ephesians 5:1-8 and the time in which those who refuse the mark of the beast will be beheaded and those that hold the testimony of Jesus will be hunted down. Keep reading through this page and see what you think. Let me know if you have any thoughts to share on this.
I also believe there is a link between Revelation 7's placement after the sixth seal at the end of Revelation 6 and before the seventh seal and the beginning trumpets, which are God's wrath.
Events of Revelation 7:
4 Angels on the four corners of the earth, holding the wind from blowing across the earth.
Angel seals the 144,000, all Israelis from the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 each. No Gentile will be sealed, which is what most Christians are. These are independent of the church.
Multitude uncountable standing before the throne of God in heaven in white robes and palms in their hands glorifying God.
These in white robes came out of the great tribulation accepting the blood of Christ to atone for their sins. They are Christians.
Their future: They serve Him day and night in His temple and He dwells among them. He wipes away all their tears and they dwell with Him forever. There is no death at that point.
Events of Revelation 14:
144,000 on Mt. Sion with a Lamb. This part further describes who these 144,000 are.
Father's name is written on their foreheads
They sing a new song that nobody but they can sing
They're redeemed from the earth
They are virgins
They follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
In their mouth is no guileG1388
Angel 1 with everlasting gospel to preach to all them that dwell on the earth. The timing of this angel is given in verse 7: "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." This is about the time of God's wrath coming.
Angel 2 saying Babylon is fallen
Angel 3 warns everyone not to worship the beast or they will receive the wrath of God forever.
Voice from heaven blessing those who die in the Lord from this point on.
One like the Son of man on a white cloud reaps the ripe harvest of the earth.
One like the Son of man gathers the "vine of the earth" and casts it into the winepress of the wrath of God.
Timing the Day of the Lord in Relation to the Great Tribulation
Since the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night and we don't know the day or hour of it, how to we get any understanding of God's timing that we're not in darkness about? This comes from understanding the relationship of the great tribulation to the day of the Lord.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[Daniel 12:1 | Jeremiah 30:4-7] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The abomination of desolation starts the time of great tribulation. It is marked by the revealing of the man of sin as he declares himself god in the temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 states that a falling away and the revealing of the man of sin must precede the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him. As Daniel 9:27 states, this is in the midst of the 70th week of Daniel.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I believe scripture is pretty clear that the "day of Christ" is the same time of the catching away of the bride to the clouds, the harpazo. This is also mirrored with the coming of our Lord is associated with sudden destruction mentioned earlier...
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Notice that the sudden destruction is flanked on both sides with the coming of the Son of man. In other words, we should expect the sudden destruction about the same time as Christ's coming for His bride. The sudden destruction from God's wrath does not occur before the man of sin is revealed at the abomination of desolation.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
All this means that the wrath of God, associated with the coming of our Lord, can't happen until after the abomination of desolation. This is in complete agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 which states that the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin must precede the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him.
What does "the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" mean? Some people skip over this term and assume that the Lord returns in glory immediately after the sixth seal, therefore, the sixth seal is at the end of the 7 years. Let's examine what shaking the heavens means according to scripture...
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
The shaking of the heavens is the wrath of God. Given what the Bible says, about escaping this time and standing before the Son of man, Luke 21:34-36, I believe we will be gone before the first trumpet sounds from Revelation 8:7 and even before the censer is cast to the earth in verses 3-5.
I believe this is why we don't know the day or hour of Christ's coming, because the children of disobedience are going to be taken by surprise when God's wrath comes, being in darkness. While we won't know the day or hour of His coming, we won't be in darkness about the times. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 Since the abomination of desolation and the revealing of the man of sin will have happened just prior to this time, the true church will be aware and awake.
Other Supporting Scriptures:
Here are some more scriptures that I feel support the pre-wrath timing. If you have some more, feel free to share!
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Being saved from wrath through Christ could be referring to eternal wrath, separation from God. However, given the support of the other scriptures, I believe its meaning covers all of God's wrath. Just as we don't spank our children because they obey, so God will not pour out His wrath on His own. We saw this when God told Abraham of the coming destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God said if there were 10 righteous He would not destroy it. Lot and his family were the only ones and they were removed before God's wrath was poured out on the children of disobedience there.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
The same issues from above apply here as well and just like the days of Noah, all the righteous were spared from God's wrath. In that instance, the physics of buoyancy were what God used to lift them up above the destruction of the flood. At the harpazo, it will be our meeting the Lord in the air that will lift us above the destruction coming on the children of disobedience and all them that dwell on the whole earth.
And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree [symbolic for Israel], and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. [That generation being the one that saw Israel "put forth her leaves" on May 14, 1948] Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
There are several key things to learn from this short little passage. First is the warning not to get wrapped up in the things of this world. We are to live spiritual lives, temporarily living in this physical, mortal existence as witnesses for Christ to the lost. The lost are the ones described being caught unawares by this snare that suddenly comes upon all them that dwell on the whole earth.
We are told to watch and pray that we are accounted worthy to escape all these things. All what things? The wrath of God that is encompassed in the phrase, "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." We saw this mirrored in 1 Thessalonians 5:2,3 when the day of the Lord is labeled as coming like a thief in the night. We also see it in this next passage.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him
Jesus is coming soon!