Craig Opal (11 May 2011)
"To Marilyn ie: "6th Seal Rapture""


 
To, Marilyn, God Bless you for your passion on this, anyone can see we both have the similar zeal on end times prophecy.  

You said: "I can't see how we could possibly be living in between the 5th and 6th seals now. At this point in time, no seals have been broken. Jesus hasn't even been given the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth".

We either have the evidences of the first five seals going on, or we don't.  There is no gray area on this.  Since the evidences are going on and have been for some time, it would be impossible to identify them in the future as "now being broken." 

It does not take theologians only, to see there has been no peace the last 2000 years(red horse& rider), there have been famines & inflation (black horse & rider), 25% of the earths population have been killed by war, famine, disease and wild animal attacks(pale horse and riders) and still are now dying and being killed by these methods,  and lastly the 5th seal started when Martyrdom started with the apostles. 

You said: "Rev 17:14 takes place right after the Rapture has taken place. Of Jesus, it says, "he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL." They are the Philadelphian saints". 

I disagree slightly.  Revelation 7:14 is evidence of an earlier rapture event at the beginning of the 6th seal.  The sixth seal spans Revelation 6:12 through the entire chapter of 7. It is a massive event which starts with the Rapture event either simultaneously, or just seconds before the seal is broken, because no one sign will signal this event, instead the many that are already going on now will. 

You are correct the Philadelphian saints will be Raptured, but they are not the only ones. The Smyrnan saints who are many, will also be raptured along with many other faithful followers of Christ scattered all around the world in many churches. 

"Mt 22:14 says, "many are called, but few are chosen." The faithful Philadelphians are chosen".  
All faithful followers will be Raptured, not just Philadelphians.
"At the time of this First-Trump Rapture of I Thess 4:16,17, which is before the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54, Rev 17:12 says, "And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have NOT YET received a kingdom".

I don't believe there are two separate Raptures, although your thoughts are interesting.  I believe the Rapture described in many passages and more are all fulfilled at one Rapture at the sixth seal.  "The last trumpet" Rapture is the same as the 1 Cor 15:52 Rapture.  The Last trumpet, is simply the first and last trumpet of it's kind. It is one of a kind and unique and is the last trumpet that will be blown before the tribulation begins, however even this "last trumpet" is not the last trumpet blown in the bible. There is also one blown at the second coming(Zech 9:14) and one blown after the battle of Armageddon is fought Is 27:12-13. 

If there was a Rapture before the one described in Rev. 6:12-17 & 7:14, then the one in these passages could not come as a surprise, as it must. 

"At the present time, Earth has been divided into 10 regions, but the ten kings that will rule over these regions have not yet been elected. We are now approaching the time of the first Rapture. After we are gone, the 10 kings will be elected".

I have no problem with this statement, sounds good to me.  

"The First-Trump Rapture takes place in Rev 4:1. Heaven's door opens and the miraculous Trump of God says, "Come up hither."

Again he is clearly only speaking to John here, not an entire group of people. We can't add things that are not there.   

"No trumpet sounded by an angel starting in chapter 8 says, "Come up hither. Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour (while the judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ). 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." Those angels have not received their trumpets yet when both the First-Trump Rapture and the Last-Trump Rapture take place".

The Rapture trumpet of 1 Thess 4:16, which is blown by Jesus himself (not any angel), is not just a trumpet blast or just a command, but both and more. 16. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".

Jesus is doing all three things at once here, the only thing the angels will be doing, is collecting the elect Matt 24:31.  How can Jesus do all three things at once? Revelation 1:10 and 4:1 tell us how, because he uses a voice that "sounds like a trumpet." 

"In Rev 4:4, we see John and 23 other elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles) sitting on thrones in Heaven. When John gets his resurrection body and is caught up to Heaven, we will be caught up to Heaven with him".

There are more than 12 patriarchs, which is one of the problems with trying to identify who the 24 are. 
 
"We know that the 12 patriarchs are elders from Num 10:1-4. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver (because there are two Raptures); of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest USE THEM FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY (Heb 12:23), and for the journeying of the camps. 3 And when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e., both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the DOOR (symbol of a Rapture) of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if they blow but with ONE trumpet, then the PRINCES, which are heads of the thousands of ISRAEL, shall GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE." 
Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant".

I think it is a stretch comparing this to the Rapture.  We will not assemble ourselves at the Rapture, Jesus and the angels will.  

"Peter is one of the elders.
1Pe 5:1 says, "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed."
In Rev 5:9, all the First-Trump-Rapture saints out of all nations are seen in Heaven singing the "new song." 
Having been caught up with John and the other 23 elders that are part of the Body of Christ in 4:1, these saints are in Heaven in time to witness Jesus being given the seven-sealed Title Deed of the Earth. The first seal is not broken until 6:1, after the Rapture in 4:1 and after Christ receives the 7-sealed book in 5:7".

These are saints that have been in heaven all along such as Moses, Elijah,Enoch, etc. etc.  Just because they don't have resurrection bodies yet, does not mean they do not have heavenly bodies of some sort.  

"Since the First-Trump Rapture has not yet taken place, the elders are not crowned or enthroned, and Jesus has not yet been given the seven-sealed book. Therefore, none of its 7 seals have been broken".

We have no idea when these elders received their crowns, but it appears they already had them in 4:10, so they more then likely already had them beforehand.  Jesus also already has his many crowns already.
  
> > Is the 6th seal Rapture Imminent?  

"No. It is the Last-Trump Rapture. It comes on the Day of God's Wrath just before the two asteroids of Rev 8:8-11 impact Earth".

Just before? The 6th seal is broken at least 3- 1/2 years before Rev. 8:8-11 occurs.  You are inferring here that Gods wrath begins sometime in the middle of the tribulation period?  Not so.  The devastation of the 6th seal begins God's wrath(because the people of the seal proclaim it), and will be so horrible it will take years for the earth to dig out of the rubble and fires.  This is why the first 3- 1/2 years is considered to be silence in heaven, because God in his mercy, will give some time to semi-recover from it. 

> > Yes I believe it is.  In our pre-trib zeal, lets not be so eager to jam a Rapture event into scripture where it does not belong or is described.  Revelation Chapter 4’s “come up here” language, is only speaking to John, not a large group of people as we see at the sixth seal. 

"Of the saints caught up in the First-Trump Rapture, Rev 5:9 says, "they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION".

There are saints there already that sing all sorts of new songs, this passage does not prove a Rapture.  These saints here have obviously been there not only when John saw them 2000 years ago, but now as well and everyone who has died in the Lord before then and since is already praising God is heaven, because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and we know we are encompassed about by many witnesses in heaven now".
 
"At the Last-Trump Rapture, the saved Tribulation saints are too many to count".

Yes, so this means this "first group" as you have called them, have a finite number. Since he has no problem telling us about the 144,000 Jews, why not number this smaller crowd as you say?  

"The first Rapture was for the Philadelphians, for whom the Lord had no words of condemnation. Therefore, they were wearing white robes. The Laodiceans were not wearing white robes at the time, so they got left behind. They wash their robes and are caught up in the second Rapture. No believer will be left behind the second time."

He also had no condemnation for the Smyrnans. Why do you leave them out?  There are also other faithful followers in every other church that will go. The Laodeciens are not the only ones who will be left behind, so will many others in other types of churches who are practicing unrepentant sin.  

> > Why would those under the altar in heaven ask Jesus at the 5th seal, when he was going to avenge their murders, if the 7 yr. tribulation had already started?  Wouldn't they know like everyone else that there is just 7 short years left? 

"They ask because part of the Tribulation has already run its course".

This does not answer my question, rather you just made my point even stronger.  If part of the tribulation had run it's course,  then they would know the answer to this question themselves.  It is a question they would have never asked if any part of the tribulation period had already begun.  

> > Is the 6th seal Rapture Imminent?  Yes I believe it is. 

"No. The First-Trump Rapture precedes the breaking of the first seal. The Last-Trump Rapture of the Tribulation saints precedes the breaking of the 7th seal."

This is incorrect in many aspects.  These are not "tribulation saints". Those are clearly seen later on being beheaded in chapter 14 of Revelation and is a separate group.  This is clearly a group who have come out before God's wrath begins. His wrath does not begin 3 -1/2 years into the last great tribulation, but at the beginning of the 6th seal. 

There is no "first trumpet"  Rapture spoken of anywhere in scripture, only a last trumpet Rapture.  First trumpet Rapture sound like a man made term to me, but if you can show me a scripture I would love to reconsider. 
> > Also this group of people seen in heaven at the sixth seal has “come out of” the great tribulation, not “come through” as some have incorrectly quoted.  Even the original Greek says they have come out of it, not through it.  

"If they come out of the Tribulation, they have been in the Tribulation".

We are already living in tribulation and have been for some time.  Jesus told us we would have tribulation.  The only difference between now and the day after the Rapture is degree of destruction. 
Ask anyone who has lived through anyone of the many disasters the past ten years, or the thousands of torchered and Martyred saints, if they believe they are living in tribulation now they would answer unanimously and resoundingly YES.  

> > The only question then becomes which portion did they come out of, and we see clearly that they have come out at the beginning, because earlier in the beginning of the seal, the people of earth proclaim God’s first day of wrath is here.  So then God’s wrath begins at the 6th seal, not beforehand. 

"The great and terrible Day of God's Wrath has arrived when the 6th seal is broken just before the Tribulation saints are caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture. God's wrath begins in Rev 8 at the breaking of the 7th seal"

God's wrath begins when scripture says it does, not when we say. Rev. 6-16-17, is very clear on when it begins: 16."And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We can't ignore plain scripture, to add or take away from what is already clear.  God's wrath does not begin at the 7th seal, because scripture and the people at the 6th seal, have already proclaimed it's coming. 

 We can clearly see in Rev. 6:16-17, is where God's wrath begins, and Revelation 16, it is finished. 
God Bless You, 

Craig Opal