RE: To Tim McHyde "RE: "Sanhedrin Convenes to Ask "Where Was The Temple Exactly?""http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2005/timm521.htm
Blessings brother Tim in the name of Yashua!
Your false assumption that I made a number of errors in my post is based only on the "traditions of men," and not in "Truth." My post was based on the Scriptures, eye witnessed accounts throughout the ages, history, and geography.
Regarding your statement that Yashua/Jesus was only referring to the Temple, and not the whole complex, if you read the Scriptures, you will see that he is talking about the entire complex.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
I guarantee you, that if one stone was left upon another of any Temple structure after 70 A.D., you would have heard a multitude of voices proclaiming Yashua/Jesus as a false prophet . There is no guile within Him.
You prove my point when you mentioned to 3000 people who were baptized in the Temple area on the day of Pentecost. This was 40 years before the destruction of the Temple complex. And it is obvious there was a large amount of water available. The truth is that there is no such source of water on the modern-day "Temple Mount." The only source of water within five miles is south of the "Temple Mount" complex at the Gihon spring. And scripture, history, and are multiple of eye witnesses report that the Temple's were adjacent to the spring. The "Temple Mount" is the old Roman Garrison. And the mosque actually sits over the site of a previous Christian Church. That church was placed there because within it is the rock that Yashua/Jesus stood upon when judged by Pilate.
But don't take my word for it. The truth is established by two or more witnesses. The following are two links which will give you a prospective of the structures during Yashua/Jesus time.
Diagram of the Temple Mount area
http://www.askelm.com/tdetail.htm
Video Presentation of the Temple Mount
http://www.askelm.com/video/v010528.htm
Here is one excerpt from: THERE WAS AN ATMOSPHERIC "SPRING" WITHIN THE TEMPLE
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t011113.htm
"Eyewitness accounts inform us that there was within the precincts of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem an inexhaustible spring of water (this was stated by Aristeas in the third century B.C.E. <l > and re-confirmed by Tacitus in the late first century C.E. <l > ). The documentary references to this and other historical sources mentioned in this article with abundant commentary by me are found in my book "The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot." Yes, the only spring of water that issued from the ground within a five-mile radius of Jerusalem both in ancient and modern times is the Gihon Spring. It is located on the west side of the Kedron Valley underneath the fo! rmer Ophel mound on the southeast ridge. At this spring is where David pitched his special Tabernacle [a temporary Temple or "House of God"] to house the Ark of the Covenant. <l > The Ark remained in "David's House" at the Gihon Spring for 38 years until Solomon transported the Ark directly up the slope of the Ophel to place it in Solomon's newly-built Temple of stone on the top of the Ophel mound. This means that the Temples were located on one site at Jerusalem - including the temporary Temple for housing the Ark called "David's House" - and this was over and around that Gihon Spring. This area is about a third of a mile south of the Dome of the Rock region within the Haram esh-Sharif. The truth is, not one of the Temples was built in the area of the Haram esh-Sharif (see my book that thoroughly proves this fact)."
End of excerpt.
Here's a second source (excerpts) concerning the validity of the Spring in relationship to the Temples:
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm
"The Importance of the Gihon Spring "
"The Gihon Spring is the only spring within the city limits of Jerusalem. We have the eyewitness account of a person from Egypt named Aristeas who viewed the Temple in about 285 B.C.E. He stated quite categorically that the Temple was located over an inexhaustible spring that welled up within the interior part of the Temple.<l > About 400 years later the Roman historian Tacitus gave another reference that the Temple at Jerusalem had within its precincts a natural spring of water that issued from its interior.<l > These two references are describing the Gihon Spring (the sole spring of water in Jerusalem). It was because of the strategic location of this single spr! ing that the original Canaanite cities of "Migdol Edar" and "Jebus" were built over and around that water source before the time of King David. That sole water source was the only reason for the existence of a city being built at that spot."
''The Gihon Spring is located even today at the base of what was called the "Ophel" (a swelling of the earth in the form of a small mountain dome) once situated just to the north and abutting to "Mount Zion" (the City of David). The Ophel Mound was close to the City of David. David soon began to fill in the area between the two summits with dirt and stones (calling it the Millo or "fill in") to make a single high level area on which to build his city and after his death the Temple.<l > David's son Solomon completed the "fill in" between the two summits and called that earthen and rock bridge the Millo.<l > Solomon then built the Temple on the Ophel Mound directly above the Gihon Spr! ing. This Ophel region became known as a northern extension of "Zion." This made the Temple so close to the City of David (where the citadel or akra was located) that Aristeas said a person could look northward from the top of the City of David and could easily witness all priestly activities within the Temple precincts.<l > The area of the Dome of the Rock, however, is 1000 feet north of the original City of David and is much too far away for anyone to look down into the courts of the Temple as Aristeas dogmatically stated one could. Also, there has never been a natural water spring within the Haram esh-Sharif. That fact alone disqualifies the area around the Dome of the Rock from being the site of the former Temples."
"The Ark of the Covenant and the Gihon Spring "
"Most people have not noticed an important geographical indication in the Scriptures. When David took the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem he made a special tent (tabernacle) for it and pitched it over the Gihon Spring.<l > For the next 27 years of David's reign (and for the first eleven years of Solomon - that is, for 38 years) the Ark remained in this particular tent at and over the Gihon Spring. That is where Solomon was crowned king.10 <l > This led the Jewish authorities to demand that all later kings of Judah be crowned at a spring. "Our Rabbis taught: Kings are anointed only by the site of a spring."11 <l > As an example, when Joash was made king, the Scriptures show his crowning was in the Temple itself beside the Altar of Burnt Offering where the laver of Solomon was positioned to provide spring water from the Gihon Spring located underneath the Temple platform.12 <l > So, Joash (like Solomon) was crowned next to the Gihon Spring. Indeed, the Psalms show consistently that the Temples (called "God's Houses") had to have spring waters emerging from their interiors. Notice Psalm 87:1-3 and 7. "
"The fact that the Psalmist stated that "ALL MY [God's] SPRINGS" ("springs," plural) were located in Zion (NOT anywhere else) and though the Gihon is only one spring is no problem because the single Gihon is even called in the Scriptures "springs" (plural).13 <l > The fact that "one spring" is pluralized (if not an idiomatic usage) can be accounted for because of the peculiar manner in which the Gihon produces its waters. Though it is a perennial spring, it was in the past a karst-type of spring that thrusts out its water as much as five times a day in the springtime when water is plentiful (with intervals when there is no water at all). Thus, the Gihon was at first a siphon type of spring that gushes forth intermittently. The word "Gihon" means "to gush." In the dry season the flow may occur a few minutes once a da! y. This oscillating effect of the Gihon could be a reason the ancients called this single spring with the plural word "springs." Over the centuries the waters have lessened in quantity output and have assumed more of a constant flow. " "His [God's] foundation is in the holy mountain. The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. The singers as the players on instruments shall be there [in the Temple]: ALL MY SPRINGS ARE IN THEE [in the Temple]." "Whatever the case, Aristeas and Tacitus both stated that the Temple of Jerusalem had an inexhaustible spring within its interior and the Gihon is the only spring in Jerusalem and the Scriptures affirm it. This spring water is mentioned in numerous ways throughout the Psalms as the "waters of salvation" that come from the Throne or House of God.14 <l > Spring waters were an essential part of Temple requirements and water springs are to accompany future Temples that are to be built.15 <l > And since there was only ONE SPRING in the Jerusalem area, all the Temples of God had to be constructed over that single spring associated with the southeast ridge. The Haram esh-Sharif region ! (though it has 37 cisterns - much inferior waters for ritualistic purposes) has NO SPRINGS and there is not the slightest historical or geological evidence that it ever had a natural spring!16 <l > "
End of excerpt.
And now for a few excerpt's from reliable witnesses who confirm that "not one stone was left upon another," just as Yashua/Jesus prophesied.
Special Historical Report
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t970504.htm
"Indeed, we have the eyewitness account of Eleazer (the Jewish leader of the remnant Jews who killed themselves at Masada about three years after the Temple and the City of Jerusalem were completely destroyed to the bedrock by Titus and his four legions). Note what Eleazer said in War VI.8,7:
"And where is now that great city, the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which was fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? IT IS NOW DEMOLISHED TO THE VERY FOUNDATIONS, AND HATH NOTHING LEFT BUT THAT MONUMENT OF IT PRESERVED, I MEAN THE CAMP OF THOSE THAT HATH DESTROYED IT, WHICH STILL DWELLS UPON ITS RUINS; some unfortunate old men also lie upon the ashes of the temple, and a few women are there preserved alive by the enemy, for our bitter shame and reproach" (emphasis mine)."
End of excerpt.
"But note this. That grand and majestic Temple of Herod (that Christ and the apostles beheld and admired) with all its inner and outer buildings, AND ALL ITS WALLS, was completely and thoroughly destroyed to the extent that when Titus the Roman General (the later emperor) viewed the city of Jerusalem after its destruction in A.D.70, he marveled that no one (because of the utter destruction of the Temple and City) would have believed that there had once been a City in that area (War VII.1,1). This accurate eye-witness description of the absolute ruined state of the Temple and Jerusalem dovetails precisely with the prophetic teaching of our Lord Himself, Christ Jesus. Remember that He told the disciples on the Mount of Olives about two days before His crucifixion that "not a stone" would be left on top of one another of ANY of the buildings or structures of the complete Temple (the outer and inner Temple). All would be thoroughly leveled to the ground with not a single ston! e on top of one another (Matthew 24:1-3)."
"The truth is, however, when Titus viewed the ruin of the Temple and the City of Jerusalem, he EXCLUDED those walls surrounding the area of the Dome of the Rock because THOSE WALLS DID NOT surround the Temple Mount. The Temple and its walls had been destroyed completely and thoroughly just as Christ said they would be. The walls that Titus saw (and that we observe today) WERE NOT the walls around the Temple. They were the walls that surrounded the Roman military fortress called by Herod the "Antonia."
End of excerpt.
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm
"Why Later People Selected the Haram esh-Sharif as the Place of Solomon's Temple "
"The reason why people in the period of the Crusades accepted the region of the Haram esh-Sharif as the Temple site was because Omar took a portable stone from the remains of two Jewish attempts to rebuild the Temples at the correct site over the Gihon Spring and brought that portable stone from those ruined Temples to his Al Aksa Mosque that he was beginning to construct. I have already mentioned in brief these two attempts to rebuild the Temples by the Jews (the first attempt was from 312 C.E. to 325 C.E. in the time of Constantine and the second in the time of Julian the Apostate in 362 C.E.). Omar made that portable stone from this ruined Temple site into the qibla stone that pointed Muslim worshippers in his Al Aksa Mosque toward Mecca. "
"In the following century, by applying a Muslim belief called baraka, the later Muslims felt that a stone from one Temple (or holy site) could be dislodged and taken to another place and that the latter place would take on the same degree of holiness as the former spot. So, a portable stone was used by Omar that was found in the ruins of the former Jewish Temples built in the times of Constantine and Julian. That particular stone was consecrated as a stone to re-inaugurate "Solomon's Temple." When Omar placed that stone in the holiest place of the Al Aksa Mosque at the southern end of the Haram esh-Sharif, Muslims could then (and from their point of view, legitimately by applying the custom called baraka) identify the site as being "Solomon's Temple." Interestingly, when the Crusaders arrived in Jerusalem, Christians also began to call the Al Aksa Mosque by the name "Solomon's Temple" (the Muslim designation) while they felt that Herod's extensi! on of the Temple was located at the Dome of the Rock (which they then called the Lord's Temple). Yet the Christians knew of the tradition that Jesus' footprints were indelibly on the Rock. How did they get in the Temple? They cleverly altered the actors of the tale and made it the Rock on which the priest placed Jesus at his infant dedication....... "
"We have absolute evidence that the Jews in the seventh century knew the location of their former Temples (and their former "Western Wall" of the Holy of Holies from the Temples built in the time of Constantine and Julian). It was in the south from the Al Aksa Mosque and near the Siloam water system. The statement of fact is found in a fragment of a letter discovered in the Geniza library of Egypt now in Cambridge University in England. Notice what it states: "
"To these Jews in the seventh, eighth and ninth centuries, this is where the ruins of their Temples and the real "Tomb of David" were located - over and around the Gihon Spring. They even had a synagogue in a cave that led to underground passages in the area. And they were right. Indeed, the Jewish authorities did not abandon the area around the Gihon Spring and its tributary waters of the Shiloah channel until the major earthquake of 1033 C.E. that destroyed the early Eudocian Wall constructed in the Byzantine period. That destruction by the earthquake made the southeastern region around the Gihon Spring to be outside the walls of Jerusalem. The whole southeast quadrant became unprotected. This opened the region to attacks by the Seljuk Turks and other enemies. " "Omar agreed that seventy households should come [to Jerusalem from Tiberias]. They agreed to that. After that, he asked: 'Where do you wish to live within the city?' They replied: 'In the southern section of the city, which is the market of the Jews.' Their request was to enable them to be near the site of the Temple and its gates, as well as to the waters of Shiloah, which could be used for immersion. This was granted them [the 70 Jewish families] by the Emir of the Believers. So seventy households including women and children moved from Tiberias, and established settlements in buildings whose foundations had stood for many generations."42 <l > (emphasis mine)
End of excerpt.
Temple Update Article
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t011112.htm
"Concerning the former Temple site in Jerusalem, we also have the express testimony of Rabbi David Kimchi, one of the great biblical commentators of the Jews (otherwise known as the RADAQ) who lived from about 1160 to 1235 C.E. Rabbi Kimchi said that as late as his time the region of the former Temples still remained in ruins and that it continued to be a fact that NO GENTILES (whether Roman, Byzantine or Muslim) HAD YET BUILT ANY OF THEIR BUILDINGS OVER THE SITE OF THE TEMPLE. He said (and I am quoting him verbatim): "And [the Temple] is still in ruins, [in] that the Temple site WAS NEVER BUILT ON BY THE NATIONS" (Commentary on Isaiah 64:10 and quoted by Prof. Kaufman in Biblical Archaeology Review, March/April, 2000, p.61 - the letters in capitals are my emphasis). "......
"There is a Third Jewish Witness in 1577 C.E. Who Virtually Repeated Rabbi David Kimchi. "
"The fact is, Rabbi David Kimchi in 1235 C.E. was NOT the last Jewish authority who unambiguously stated that the beautiful Christian/Muslim buildings of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque COULD NOT BE the site of the Temple. These Christian/Muslim areas were not in ruins. Just the opposite was the case. Our next proof is yet a third "key" (or "deal point") on this same theme given by a first class Jewish historian some 335 years after Rabbi David Kimchi. This is the testimony of a Jewish historian who was also aware in the year 1577 C.E. that the site of the former Temples WAS STILL NOT BUILT UPON by the Romans, Byzantines, Muslims, Crusaders, Egyptians or Ottoman Turks. Other than the Jews themselves in the brief period in the fourth century in the time of Constantine and again in that of Julian (when two Temples were started by the Jews, but aborted), there had never been any buildings of consequence ever constructed on that southeas! t ridge over the Gihon Spring. And now we come to the sixteenth century. Jewish authorities as late as 1577 C.E. knew the Haram was not the Temple site. They knew that the City of Jerusalem had been moved north and westward! "
"We have written record from one of the finest Jewish historians .... "
"This eyewitness testimony of De' Rossi as late as 1577 C.E. that no Gentile buildings of any kind (religious or non-religious) had ever been built on the true Moriah (the original Temple site) and that Arabs were shunning it is simply a continuation of the statements of Rabbi David Kimchi (and earlier those of Eutychius) that the Gentiles would never construct their holy buildings on the site of the former Jewish Temples. It was different for Christians and Muslims. They had long before transferred their new Temples up to the Haram esh-Sharif and they built holy structures within the Haram esh-Sharif as a re-dedicated Temple of Solomon (the Al Aqsa Mosque) and what they thought to be the northern extension of Herod's Temple which became known in Crusader times as the Temple of the Lord (the Dome of the Rock). "
End of excerpts.
You'll find a multitude of articles from various scholars, along with the full articles from above, at the following link:
TEMPLE UPDATE ARTICLE INDEX
http://www.askelm.com/temple/index.htm
You'll not only find articles concerning the Temple, but also how some of these heresies began.
Shalom, John Clark