Paul Wilson (30 March 2011)
"Re Paul----I accept your challenge----The seals exposed and much more"

Your take is interesting. Though I am not baiting I just wanted an answer about the fulfillment of the seals. I am not looking to debate just seeking answers as to how the seals could already be fulfilled. While I disagree with your findings on the seals you have given what I ask for - an explanation.  JP II as the beast is a bit out of left field I think but who knows. I believe the passages refer to someone dying and rather quickly after, a day or so maybe even 3 to counterfeit Christ, coming back to life but I cant prove you are not correct we will wait and see. It is good though to discuss these things. I am no theologian, nor do I claim to be, but I don’t sway easy either. Some call it being steadfast others stubborn but I don’t wish to change my mind to follow which ever way the theological tide is currently going. I try to listen to God and go with the feelings and thoughts he gives.
 
I thank you for your response and ask that if someone else has a different explanation for the seals already being open please do write in and if anyone, like me, feels they are future please write in too. We should not shy away from discussion of things.
 
Paul
 
 
John B (29 March 2011)
"Re: Paul----I accept your challenge----The seals exposed and much more"

Paul,
 
I can see by your posts  http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2011/paulw328-2.htm  that you have been casting your bait in the water hoping that someone would take the challenge and explain to you why some of us believe that the first four seals have already been opened. You appear to be verbally and scripturally ready to defend your pre-trib rapture and then the first four seals are opened position to anyone who will take your bait.  Well then----consider me tugging on your line.
 
First of all most people (and probably you) believe that the seals are opened in a relatively short period of time---weeks, months or years right during the tribulation timeframe. What if instead we were talking about a couple of centuries in time when the first five seals were being opened? That would change the whole picture would it not? Leaving the door wide open for the Rapture to happen at the opening of the sixth seal as many of us believe. So lets go through the first five seals, throw out the narrow time frame, think out of the box, and see if anything makes sense.
 
So not seeing any scriptural reason why these first five seals have to be fit into any short time frame lets take a fresh look at them and God's wording of them. The first seal says  "And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow: and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer."  Is there anyone in history that "exactly" fits this description? There is indeed, Napoleon Bonaparte is an exact fit for the meaning of the first seal. He was a crowned emperor of France and he is always portrayed on a white horse. He was a military man (bow) who went out conquering and to conquer. But of all his conquests and they were many, the most important one scripturally was that he put an end to the Roman Catholic Church and the popes ruling Europe and most of the civilized world at that time. From a scriptural viewpoint this was a huge milestone in history. And if you read far enough into this article you'll see how important it was.
 
The second seal reads  "Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword." Again was there a time in history when this happened? I believe this seal was fulfilled in World War II. Peace was taken from the whole world and millions of people were killed as a result of it. And was a great sword given to him (mankind) at this time? Yes the nuclear bomb was given---the greatest sword the world had or has ever known.
 
The third seal reads "So I looked, behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, a quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and so do not harm the oil and the wine." I believe the wording of this seal speaks to this present time. When one sees a set of scales they think of the legal system. Justice of the good "weighing" out over evil. But God said in the latter days they would call evil good and good evil. We see that everywhere in our society and churches today whether it be abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, and the injustice list goes on and on. Then the wording of the seal speaks of famine and food shortages which are happening around the world at an alarming rate. Then the wording says don't mess with the oil or the wine.The whole world is jockeying for who can control the oil.  The world's  governments in this day and age will not function without oil. And don't mess with the wine---wine representing having a "good time". Most of the world in this technological age is just focused on the pleasures of the world and are focused only on that and could care less about God or His ways. Just keep the wine and the good times rolling.
 
The fourth seal reads  "So I looked and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was death, and Hades followed with him." And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth." I believe the wording of this seal speaks of the present time as well. I believe we witnessed the pale horse riding in the streets of Cairo a few weeks ago announcing that there would be an Islamic uprising that would encompass one fourth of the earth. This uprising would lead to hunger and great death. Notice it doesn't say that one fourth of the earth would be killed, it says that this (Islamic) force had power over one fourth of the earth---big difference. And being that this uprising is Islamic and the followers do not accept Jesus as their savior then indeed Hades or hell will be their fate.
 
The fifth seal happens in heaven and we on earth will have no idea when that seal has been opened. The fifth seal opening is when Jesus wakes up all the souls of the people who have accepted Him over the centuries. He prepares them to be soon joined in the clouds at the Rapture with those of us on earth who are His. He instructs them to wait a little while longer----presumably until He cracks the sixth seal.
 
Then Jesus opens the sixth seal------Rather than rewrite this all again, I'll copy and attach the article I wrote last week that explains the sixth seal and then what I believe happens after that---just below. And Paul I hope this satisfies the challenge you put out there for someone to step up and explain why the Rapture happens not before but after the first five seals.
 
 
With the opening of the sixth seal in Rev.6:12-17 there will be a great earthquake, much much worse than the Japanese quake. Maybe a 10 or an 11+ on the Richter scale. Whereas the quake in Japan moved the whole country a few inches, verse 14 says the earthquake that accompanies the Rapture will move every mountain and island worldwide out of their places. The force of this earthquake will set of volcanoes around the planet and the ash from these will turn the view of the sun black and the moon will appear as blood.
 
It's at that moment that Christ will Rapture His Church. Millions of people will be taken in the twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the clouds. The dead in Christ will rise first and will be followed by we in Christ who are alive.
 
Also at that very time the heavens will be cleansed of Satan and his fallen angels for in verse 13 the stars (angels) of heaven fell to the earth. The heavens will not be occupied by Christ's Church (good) and Satan and his cohorts (evil) at the same time. Verse 14 says the sky as we would view it will appear to roll up as a scroll---- as if maybe to open into another dimension. A dimension that draws into it the bride of Christ and spits out Satan and his fallen angels.
 
This all happens as the sixth seal is broken and then we the Church show up in heaven as per Rev.7:9-17 before the seventh seal is opened. We as His Church will escape the tribulation wrath as Jesus promised we would  because in verses 17 of Rev. 6 after He has just Raptured us it states---"the day of His wrath has come".
 
What then happens next on earth?? Many have speculated as to what they believe will happen after the Rapture using Holy scripture as their guide, here is what I see as to that scenario.
 
The world will be in extreme chaos. In the geographic region where the unprecedented earthquake and likely immense tsunami took place there will be total destruction. It will cripple the economy of that nation and or nations near the epicenter and will result in a global economic collapse. The world economy has been teetering on the edge of collapse and this event will completely cripple it.
 
Millions of people will be missing from around the planet and those who are still on earth will be demanding answers as to where their loved ones have vanished to. Someone will step forward to answer the questions and calm the populous. Is there a world leader with that kind of "universal" clout that the world populous would trust and believe for the answers?  Lets look to the scriptures for the answer to that question.
 
The bible states that a beast with seven heads and ten horns will rise up and the dragon (Satan) will give this beast (the anti-christ) his power, his throne and his great authority. He (the anti-christ) was given a mouth speaking great things---in other words he will mesmerize the planet with his speaking abilities and will have the answers to the world's pressing questions as to what just happened to millions of people. What else does the bible say about this beast with seven heads and ten horns? It says that this beast was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And it says that those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life (most of those left behind after the Rapture) when they see this beast that was, and is not, and yet is. So this will be a person who was alive and died and his bodily form will ascend out of the bottomless pit and miraculously appear to be alive to completely marvel the world. The people of the earth will be so blown away by this famous person who has just returned from the dead----- and so starved for answers---- that they will hang on his every word.
 
Is there any more scripture that points to who this person is or was that will identify him and explain why the whole world will follow him resulting in such a great deception? Yes, the bible explains this in a verbal puzzle. In John the apostle's vision in Rev.17 he saw seven kings. Five had fallen, one was in power at the time of his vision and one had not yet come. The one to come would continue a short time. And to complicate it further one of these seven kings who was king and had died would return to be the eight king. This eighth king according to scripture will be the beast of seven heads and ten horns---the anti-christ.
 
So can we take facts from our world history to ascertain who this eighth king / beast is----- that will completely mesmerize and deceive the planet? I believe we can. It wasn't until 1929 that the Vatican State became it's own country and had its own king.  Now that it is it's own country the pope is the rightful king of that country. Since 1929 there have been seven pope / kings and the next will be the eighth. So lets plug John's vision from Rev. 17 into the historical facts. John sees seven kings (popes). Five have died, the sixth who John is focused on in his vision is Pope John Paul II. The seventh in his vision is yet to be (Pope Benedict---the present pope) and the eight king who was one of the seven will be the beast (the anti-christ) the one who John was focused on--- John Paul II. (And for all you Doves that are seeing 11 and wondering why---those two Roman numerals behind John Paul's name look a lot like an 11 to me.)
 
So we have a pope who the whole world loved during his long reign. A pope who had ecumenical gatherings in Rome from religions all other the planet. He gathered Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu's, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, American Indians, snake worshipers, etc. all to Rome on the same stage for the biggest ecumenical meeting the world had ever seen. This is the man who after the Rapture will miraculously appear with all the answers to quell the chaos. And just as in the medieval period for centuries when the popes ruled the world----he, John Paul II will again rule the world for 42 months.
 
The bible says the seven heads of the beast stand for seven mountains----Rome is the city built on seven hills / mountains. The bible says the ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but will receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. The political power brokers of the Catholic Church the Jesuits have already broken the planet into ten sections for their "ten king" future rulings. Any Catholic who has been steeped in that religion (as I was) and reads Rev.17 and 18 will realize the descriptions there are without a doubt describing the Catholic Church and its workings. The Catholic Church was not in existence when John wrote the book of Revelation----- yet he described it and it's workings in Rev. 17 and 18 as if he was witnessing the facts today. (Bible prophecy is amazing stuff)
 
The Vatican has an intelligence service that some say is unrivaled on the planet .And its worldwide Jesuit political power structure has been well established for centuries and will have no problem ruling. The bible says that 10 areas of the world will be of one mind and will give their power and authority to the beast--- the anti-christ--- who will rule from Rome.
 
I believe the Muslims will become a non player after Israel severely weakens them in the Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17 war. And the remainder of Muslims and Russia will soon after be out of the picture when God the Father personally deals with them in Ezek. 38 and 39.
And sadly I believe the United States was taken out of the picture with the initial horrendous Rapture earthquake and possible Yellowstone volcano that took place on its soil decimating the country. A two hundred million man army (has to be the Far East) squares off for battle and the result of this battle is that one third of mankind---two and a half billion people--- are killed, most likely in a nuclear exchange. I believe that Pakistan, India, China and North and South Korea will participate in this exchange and it will have been orchestrated and arranged by four angels that God had prepared specifically for that task. And this is as per Rev.9:14-19
 
Basically what you have left is the anti-christ ruling what's left of the planet from Rome. His main mission will be to destroy God's chosen people the Jews and he will make every effort to do so---- being successful in killing two thirds of them. At some point as per scripture the anti-christ's 10 area world forces will be gathered together and will make war with the Lamb (Jesus) and His "chosen" and "faithful" forces. The Lamb will overcome them. Then God will put it in the hearts of the 10 area anti-christ world forces to turn on this evil system headquartered in Rome and destroy it----not only in Rome but world wide. As per Rev.17:12-18.
 
At that point Jesus with gather up Satan, the anti-christ, the false prophet and the rest of the bad guys and deal with them. Satan will be bound and thrown in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. The anti-christ, the false prophet and the bad guys will be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity.Jesus will establish His millennium kingdom on earth for a thousand years.
 
Please forgive me, obviously there are many many more idiosyncrasies and details about the whole scenario I neglected to mention but I tried to hit the high points.
 
Christ be with you,
John B
 
 
P.S.--Did you notice who the Russians just went to with their concerns and fears----the soon world headquarters and leader----the Vatican  and the pope    http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2011/dru325.htm