From: Marilyn AgeeRe: Joe Callaway (23 March 2011)
"RE: Bruce Warner"Hi Joe, welcome to the Five Doves, where we can discuss differences of opinion calmly while still basking in the love of God. We are a bunch of believers trying our best to plumb the depths of the information that the Lord has given us in the Bible. As I think you already know, we can disagree without being disagreeable, and sometimes, two heads are better than one.Let's put our heads together on this problem: are the Laodiceans true believers?You said, "These people are not, nor ever was saved."I am inclined to say the Laodiceans are true believers, just because I think that they have to be "in Christ" to be spewed out of his mouth, but let's look a little closer. Maybe I missed something. What do the scriptures say?
You mentioned Mt 7:21-23. It says? "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
That just might not apply to the Laodiceans, because in Rev. 1:20, there are "SEVEN churches", not six. It says, "the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the SEVEN CHURCHES."
The number 7 means perfection and completion. When applied to the 7th church group, it speaks of completion. Granted, they are not yet perfect. They are just lukewarm, but they are a church.
Rev 3 specifically calls them a "church." Verse 14 says, "And unto the angel of the CHURCH of the Laodiceans".
Verse 22 says, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES." That sounds like a good clue.
We get to the meat of the matter in verse 19. It says, "As many as I LOVE, I rebuke and CHASTEN (KJV, or "discipline" in the ISV; Gr. paideia, education, training, meaning correction by disciplinary measures): be zealous therefore, and REPENT."
Who needs just to repent? believers or nonbelievers? Nonbelievers need just to accept Christ. When they do, all their past sins are washed off the slate. Believers just need to confess their sins committed after they accepted Christ so God can forgive them, thus bringing all their sins under the blood of Christ.
I John 1:9 says, "If we (believers) confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Let's look at Heb 12:5. It says, "My son (a son of God, i.e., a believer), despise not thou the CHASTENING of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVETH HE CHASTENETH"...
That fits the Laodiceans. Rev 3:19 says, "As many as I LOVE, I rebuke and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent."
There's a really good passage in Heb 12 that helps me understand our subject. Verse 5 says, "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, MY SON, despise not thou the CHASTENING of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him".
Verses 6-10 say, "For WHOM THE LORD LOVETH HE CHASTENETH, and scourgeth every SON whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But IF YE BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof all are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTARDS, AND NOT SONS. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days CHASTENED US after their own pleasure; but he FOR OUR PROFIT, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS."
If we are partakers of his holiness, the Holy Spirit, we are believers, are we not?
As I understand it, when we accept Christ as our own personal Saviour, our old sins are washed away and we are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Afterward, when we sin, the level of the Holy Spirit within us goes down. We are quenching the Holy Spirit. He doesn't leave us, but we are not filled either.
Scripture says for us to be filled, so we have to confess our sins to be able to receive that extra filling. If not obstructed by sin, it wells up within us like a fountain of living water.
John 7:38 says, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." This extra filling of living water, or, as in the case of the foolish virgins, oil of the Holy Spirit, is what the lukewarm Laodiceans need.
To me, the wise-virgin Philadelphian's bodies are filled with the Holy Spirit. The foolish-virgin Laodiceans have some oil, but their lamps are sputtering and threatening to go out. Their vessels (i.e., bodies) are not filled with the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the Lord's chastisement is to wake them up so they can be filled. Those left behind at the First-Trump Rapture (Rev 4:1) can confess their sins and be picked up at the Last-Trump Rapture.
Rev 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
The First-Trump Rapture seems to catch up the wise virgins before or during the first half of the Tribulation. The Last-Trump Rapture catches up the once foolish virgins that have become wiser on the last day of the Great Tribulation, when the Day of God's Wrath has arrived, but before the "Sword of the Lord" that is bathed in Heaven destroys Gog's army (Eze 39) and Babylon on the Euphrates (Rev 18:21).
Isa 34:5 says, "For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea (Edom), and upon the people of my curse (Babylonians), to judgment."
Isa 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? (the asteroid Wormwood; Rev 8:11) 17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. 18 He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."
I hope I haven't told you more than you wanted to know. One thing leads to another in Scripture, and I love following all the rabbit trails. I learn all kinds of things on the way to looking up something else.
Joe Callaway (23 March 2011)
"RE: Bruce Warner"
I've been perusing this forum for about 3 months. I want to say hi to everybody, and reply to a post.
Welcome to the Doves, Joe!
I believe that those 'lukewarm Laodiceans' who are 'spewed or spit' out of Christ's mouth at the 'moment of rapture' are immediately 'spewed or spit' directly into the 'time of the wrath of God' on earth which begins the second-half of the '70th Week of Daniel'.
I'd like to show you something from my studies on this...
Let's start with Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
As Christians we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ, clothed in His righteousness. See Romans 4:20-25 and also Romans 5:17-19. These people are naked, they are of the group Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:21-23, these people think they are saved, and even quote works to Jesus. Jesus professes "I never knew you" yet Jesus knows His sheep. These people are not, nor ever was saved. Notice what Jesus is doing...
Revelation 3:20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Jesus is actually standing outside of the Laodicean Church, and calling people to come out of it. Also, He makes a promise to the overcomers. How does one become an overcomer?
1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
These Laodiceans are called lukewarm, because they're focused on carnal things, riches, goods, etc etc. Victims of the ecumenical movement and the so-called prosperity gospel, which in reality is another Gospel. See 2 Corinthians 11:4, and Galatians 1:8-9.
So those who do not repent and open their eyes to their true condition will of course go through the Tribulation, seeing how they're just as lost as the unbelievers. Thank you for your time.