This is in reply to EAR's: LAST WORD ON JOHN THE BAPTIST FOR TED

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2008/ear35.htm

I really enjoyed reading your reply. Especially about me sitting behind my computer with a big grin on my face. It was there. A few chuckles also.

In case, this really is your "Last Word" on this subject you have to say on Five Doves anyway, may I leave you with hopefully "thought-provoking" questions. No, I can't let you "off the hook" either in terms of your answer, which was:

Firstly, to answer your challenge!! Jesus Christ alone was “born of the Spirit”, by Mary, before he was born of water in birth, and before he was Baptised in water by John. (I think that is scriptural!!) You did say “anyone else” in scripture!

1. Okay then, can you find any where in Holy Scripture where it actually says Jesus Christ was "born of the Spirit" or even filled with the Holy Spirit before Birth, like it does John the Baptist, as in the following verse?

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. Luke 1:15

You state, "I think that is scriptural!". Well, go ahead and prove it, at least to yourself, (that it is scriptural). Find the proof in Scripture. Sure, we can find that it was the work OF the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ was in the womb to start with.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 1:18

That this was not a normal male-female conception but God-female conception has been pretty well established. Remember that all three parts of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate distinct persons. So you are talking about 2 parts of the Godhead inside of Mary's womb when Jesus was born.

2. I'll make it an even easier challenge. Can you find any where in Holy Scripture where it says that Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit, the first 30 some years of His life BEFORE He was baptized in water by John the Baptist?

Ready for the next question? Regarding the following verses:

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. John 1:33

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matthew 3:16

3. How could the Spirit of God descend onto Jesus and remain on Him, if He in fact already had the Spirit of God? Why didn't the Spirit of God just come out of Him? Can the Spirit of God descend to land upon itself?

Ready? Regarding the following verses describing what happened directly after Jesus was water baptized:

Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:1

And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness Mark 1:12

And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Luke 4:1

4. Why, after the Spirit of God landed on Him following being baptized do the Gospels make a point of saying He was being led, in fact even driven by the Spirit, and not anytime before?

5. Next question. If Jesus was greater at his birth than John the Baptist was at his birth, why didn't Jesus acknowledge himself when he said that John was the greatest born of women? Wasn't Jesus born of women? Jesus didn't say John the Baptist was second greatest born of women.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:11

6. Next question. How in the world did Jesus permit John the Baptist to baptize Him if John was considered by Jesus not to be "greater" than himself? Does Scripture not say:

And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. Hebrews 7:7

Can there be a contradiction in scripture? And such a great contradiction? Can John the Baptist bless Jesus without, at that moment in time, be considered greater by God the Father?

Pardon me while I inject my own personal two-cents. Jesus had to fulfill in order, as the Son of Man, what we must do to inherit eternal life. He willingly humbled himself in every way to make this happen. He had to be born of women, just like any other "son of man'. He had to believe in himself, be water baptised, and THEN receive the Holy Spirit. Nothing out of order.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

What made John the Baptist greater than Jesus before Jesus was baptized, was the presence in John the Baptist since before birth, of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist was greater because He that was within Him was greater.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. I John 4:4

When Jesus received the Holy Spirit after it lit upon Him like a Dove, John was no longer greater. When John lost the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Elijah, (obviously he lost it before the Spirit of Elijah was back in Elijah's body at the mount of transfiguration), and his faith, he was no longer even saved. Which is why John the Baptist appeared to be suffering from MPD when he sent his disciples while he was in prison to ask Jesus whether he was the one. He lost the Spirit of Elijah, he lost the Holy Spirit, he lost his faith in Jesus as the Son of God, who He himself had prophecied about being the Son of God, and then he lost his head. Literally. When John the Baptist said he must decrease, boy was he being prophetic. How much lower could he decrease? Guess the fulfillment of that prophecy really helped cement him as the greatest prophet of all time. Of course, one has to count the Spirit of Elijah really making him the greatest prophet, including Elijah's prophecies.

Now having the Spirit of Elijah in Elijah's body and the Spirit of Elijah in John the Baptist's body all at the same time, running around in Heaven, doesn't paint a pretty picture. The Holy Spirit can be two places or more at once but a person's spirit is pretty much joined to one soul and body at one time. However, one could argue, John the Baptist, the greatest prophet who ever lived, will be represented in Heaven. He will just be in the body of Elijah. EAR - you would have me there. Just my two cents.

7. One last question on the subject, in two parts. When John the Baptist prophecied:

He must increase, but I must decrease. John 3:30

How exactly did John the Baptist decrease and how exactly did Jesus Christ increase? And, how does this statement, which one can picture a scale with weights on either side of the balance with one side going up while the other going down, make any sense if Jesus started out above John the Baptist?

I spent all my time on the one question and never got to discussing if there really is any difference in the old and new "covenant" as to how we get to Heaven or whether the only difference is time. In other words, one "covenant" looks forward to the redemption work on the cross and one looks backward. The point being in my mind that we can't call on special circumstances of the "old" covenant to treat people different than the "new" covenant in the following verse:

8. But I'll leave you with the following question. When Jesus said this, (Matthew 11:11) regarding the person that Jesus said "is" (present tense) the least in the kingdom of heaven. Would that person have been in the kingdom of heaven under the "old" covenant or the "new" covenant? (The question that needs to be answered first of course is when did the "new" covenant start?)

Enjoyed the discussions on John the Baptist. Hope to see everyone in Heaven very soon, (at the rapture).

Shalom,

Ted Porter