Jan's post and the post by MJ Martin are interesting to consider together.

The "man child" of Revelation chapter 12 helps explain the difference between the Church's role, and the role of the Jewish nation that is saved after the rapture.

I don't think it is correct that this child in Revelation 12 is the church, and I don't think he is Jesus Christ either.

First of all "12" is the number of Israel, which is the first clue, since this happens to be Revelation Chapter 12. [not a crucial factor, but a clue]

Second, we always look to other places in scripture to explain scripture – - in order to decipher the language here (using, of course, only a King James Bible).

(1 Cor 2:13)
"not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

The only place in the Bible where sun moon and stars are given the meaning of a woman - it is from Joseph's dream in Genesis 37 we see that the woman with the sun, moon, stars around here - obviously Israel - Joseph's family that bowed down to him:

37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and
said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and
the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his
father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou
hast dreamed?  Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to
bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

So that dream is interesting because according to it, Joseph would be  a type of the "man child" destined to rule.  Just as Joseph dreamed, he did rule Egypt and his family bowed down to him. In more particulars than anybody else in the Bible, Joseph is a type of Jesus Christ, which suggests Jesus is the "man-Child", but that is not certain.

The woman in heaven does not stand for Mary the mother of Jesus and there is absolutely no reason for anybody to think that [She is not called "Virgin Mary" - she had many children after Jesus was born (Mark 6:3 & Psalm 69:8); Also she is not called "The Mother of God" - she only gave birth to the man's body of Jesus Christ - not his divinity(Hebrews 1:5)]. The "Queen of Heaven" type Mary that is popular in some places is simply a revival of ancient Ashtoreth worship - the goddess of fertility - and it is described as an evil practice in the book Jeremiah. According to Jeremiah, the women of the land were especially drawn into and deceived by this cult (Jeremiah 7:18, and 44:17-25).

So we can concluded that Revelation 12's woman is Israel, and it is a good guess to assume that the man-child would be Jesus Christ, who was born of Israel according to the flesh.

But that leaves us with the strangeness of this passage describing Jesus as "caught up" into heaven to apparently escape danger (which is ridiculous to even consider) at what seems to be the start of the last 3.5 years of the tribulation (see Revelation 12:5-6) (which timing between these events is off by 2,000 years!).

Those verses say the "woman" Israel, will flee out of Jerusalem into the wilderness for 3.5 years. That is consistent with many OT Bible passages regarding the second advent of Jesus who returns as a conquering King to rescue those remaining Jews being hunted down and killed in the Arabian wilderness for 42 months, the same place where Moses lead them for about 40 years. (Jesus returns with the Church, riding on so-called "white horses" (cherubs),  to Mount Sinai in Arabia, and travels up to the Mount of Olives, squashing the nations into something like tomato paste all along the way]

So why would verse 5 be the resurrection of Christ and verse 6 be the last part of the Tribulation, and the gap of 2,000 years of history be left unexplained?? That seems strange, and makes one consider more possibilities.

I think the man-child is NOT Jesus, but somebody else.

Jesus will indeed rule, but remember he has two people who rule with him on his right hand and on his left. When Nebruchadnezer gave Daniel absolute poser, he was the ruler, but he put his 3 friends in charge of all the business that had to be done while he remained in the King's palace.

2:49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach,
and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel
sat in the gate of the king.

I believe that Moses and Elijah are the two that stand on the right and left side of Jesus. Moses is on the right as the Law - Elijah is on the left as the Prophets. Elijah was "caught up" alive to heaven and "Moses" body was caught up - evidently after he was raised back to life.

The Bible says the law shall go forth from Jerusalem - so Moses' law will one day be universal. This, of course, is not a church-age doctrine. Today Moses' law is of no effect. But in the future Millennial period it will be supreme over all the world, although it will be had in the context of all Christ's teachings in the book of Matthew, and it will recognize Jesus Christ as Lord.

So we see the two witnesses that appear in Revelation chapter 11:12 come back to life and are caught up to heaven. By proximity it would make much more sense that the passage in Revelation 12 refers to one of those two men.

I believe those two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, which can be shown as they were the two by Jesus as the transfiguration, and they are the two that Malichi says will come back:

 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto
him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 4:6 And he shall turn the
heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to
their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Those are the final words of the OT - obviously God wanted to warn the Jews  - Moses and Elijah are both coming back!

Therefore Moses (representing the Law that shall rule all nations - Revelation 12:5) is the man child born of Israel, and his body was retrieved by the archangel for the purpose of his return during the tribulation:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a
railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Conclusion: MOSES IS THE MAN-CHILD.

His persecution at the time of his birth when he was rescued in an ark placed in the Nile also foreshadows this.

Note: Enoch is NOT one of the Revelation witnesses, no matter what the so-called prophesy experts think, nor how tempting it is to try to fit him into the story. Enoch is the only OT type, or in the entire Bible, of a man who is born who clearly never dies - a type that cannot be altered.

[In analyzing Melchezedik, Paul wrote in Hebrews that he did not die, but that was only in the sense of saying that because it was never mentioned either his birth or death - that he was a type of eternal existence, like Christ. But Enoch clearly was born on a given date, and is just a man - but he never died.]

Therefore Enoch CANNOT die ever, since that would ruin the type: He is the type of the raptured Church - and we (God willing soon) will never die, but instantly be changed.

God does not like "types" to be ruined - remember when Moses struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it? That ruined the typology of Christ who only died ONCE - but Moses kept hitting the rock, sort of like re-sacrificing Jesus. Moses was punished for that at that time, but he is forgiven, and he will evidently be given the opportunity to do some smacking with his rod in the future: "rule all nations with a rod of iron" Rev. 12:5


Further: So in the church age we have all "overcome" by the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet in the next dispensation, overcoming will entail faith plus works: a person must endure to the end to be saved, and must keep the commandments to have a right to the tree of life. This has no application to the Church since we are one with Christ - we are united to the one who lives forever and has overcome for us. We don't need to eat any of the fruit from the tree of life: we have the whole tree!

So God's kingdom is simply just as organized as the kingdoms that are described in the Bible over and over again, but especially under Solomon. We have the royal household: King Solomon (Like Jesus Christ). We have the King's father: King David (Like God the Father). We have the King's one favourite bride, the Queen: the Shullamite (the Church); we have the queen-mother: Bathsheeba (OT Jews saved before Christ); We have the other queens (Israel's 12 tribes and levities who are saved in the future) and the concubines and virgins without number (All the world's nations saved out of the tribulation and into the millennium). Some are "kings and priests" some are "priests" some are "singers" -- etc. God has a place for everybody and service in his kingdom on some level for all these groups and people.

    Solomon's Song:
    6:8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins
    without number.
    6:9 My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her
    mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw
    her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they
    praised her.

    (See also, Psalm 45).

    2 Cor.
    11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have
    espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin
    to Christ.

    (The Church is the one and only bride of Christ!)

[That is why it is so important for a Christian to maintain good works and not get wrapped up in evil. If a Christian does this, he will loose his reward of inheritance. BUT HE IS STILL "SAVED" AND WILL NOT GO TO HELL because he is a member of Christ's body: Jesus is not going to get mutilated by carving out chunks of his skin and chopping off his fingers and toes just because their old sinful natures got into sin. But that sinful Christian will lose the role in heaven that he otherwise could have forever enjoyed.]

    Collosians
    3:24  Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the
    inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

    Galations
    5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
    like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time
    past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of
    God.

    2 Cor.
    5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that
    every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that
    he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

    [Sinful, Flesh-led Christians get no heavenly rewards!]

No matter who said otherwise, the clear understanding of Matthew 25 is that the wise and foolish "virgins" with oil, are not the church. They go forth to "meet the bridegroom" not get married, and they are a plural number: obviously not the church.

For these virgins they must be very careful to watch their step, they must endure to the end, they must have both faith and works, they must have oil ready in their lamps: otherwise they are LOST. That is not any saved-Christian in this age !! We are saved, and that's that. No need to reject what the Bible says about us being saved and secure: Christ is not marrying "virgins" plural - he is marrying one single bride. Anybody losing salvation in the book of Matthew applies to Jews or Gentiles in the tribulation or millennium - these passages are not church age ones.

There are many pictures in the Bible of what is about to happen, including how Queen Vashti was replaced by Estar, which is what is about to happen right now. The gentile bride (the Church) has gone into Laodicean apostasy - is boasting over the natural olive branches - and it is going to get grafted out and removed from planet earth. At that point (soon!) the natural branches are re-grafted in - and the Jewish Queen Estar takes over: Jews ruling over the planet in the millennium period.

Because this break is about to happen, some Christians are jumping the gun and pretending that everybody should be Jewish. That is an error - we are still the Church and not encumbered by any Jewish Old Testament law.

The Church is comprised of former Jews and Gentiles together into a new body - Christ's body. We will dwell in New Jerusalem with Christ. Others will have the obligation to come on pilgrimage into the city, if they are worthy. If not they lose out and don't get to enjoy the living water and tree of life. As for earthly Jerusalem, it will be the headquarters or capital of the world. The Jews will indeed rule the world - which was promised them. What they fail to realize is that by rejecting Christ, they do not get to rule in the heavenly Jerusalem - that is where the church forever dwells (we will have permanent houses there, and the privilege to come and go at will). The wealth and glory of the universe will flow to New Jerusalem.

The last Point, regarding the Covenant:

Ever wondered why is it called the Old and New TESTAMENT not Old and New COVENANT??

Hebrews
9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the
death of the testator.
9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is
of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

A "testament" is a will. A will has no force or effect whatsoever until the person who wrote it is declared to be legally dead. The point is only when Jesus Christ died did the New Testament come into effect. Anything that happened prior to Calvary is OT, not NT. The covenant of Jeremiah is NOT the church's New Testament, but rather it is a promise regarding the Jewish people once they are saved at the end of the tribulation!!

Note how this is explained in "HEBREWS" --- get it? There are three books that doctrinally apply to Jews in the Tribulation and Millennium: Matthew - it transitions the Bible from the Old Testament; Hebrews - it was written anonymously by Paul to HEBREWS, to Jews; and James - he purposely said it was written to the "twelve tribes" (James 1:1).

Those three books, and Revelation, are the only places where you will find passages that clearly show a person "losing their salvation". It is clear by many passages in those four books that people after the rapture (after the Church age is over) must have both faith and works to be saved. Anybody who sins after being "saved" in the future will have to repent right away and get right or else they will lose their form of "salvation".

It is from those four books that all the teaching against eternal security finds its Biblical source. All those sources are correct - but they are misapplied to the wrong age!!

Any other passages in the rest of the New Testament that seem to indicate lost salvation for Christians are, with careful reading, either do not apply to true Christians or do not really teach lost salvation, but rather a loss of one's special position or heavenly rewards.


What happened 430 years before Moses?

This was the promise given to ABRAHAM of his inheritance of not only Palestine, but the entire world - a promise that remains with the Jews. One of the mistakes in Michael deKruif's chronology is that it mistakenly presumes that Israel was actually in Egypt for 400 years. The four hundred years of persecution began counting down with Abraham's son Isaac who was persecuted by his older half-brother Ishmael.

The "covenant" theology of the reformed theology types (mostly 7 point Calvinists) seeks to unseat the Jews from their eternal promises that God gave them. In other words, this is exactly the coming apostasy spoken of by Paul in Romans:

11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root
thee.
11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might
be graffed in.
11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou
standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God
spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not
thee.
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which
fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his
goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

See how it works? The Jews lost out for 2,000 years, but they will get it all back. And the last church-age church, the apostate Laodicean church gets puked out like vomit:

3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I
will spue thee out of my mouth.

Those pukes get grafted right out as quickly as they were grafted in (lost position) and the Jews return to the center stage of God's attention. (God re-marries divorced Israel, while Jesus marries the Church!).

The "confirmed covenant" of Daniel 9:27 is obviously not a covenant regarding salvation since it is only for 1 week (7 years). Christ's covenant purchased at Calvary is an eternal covenant. Also, the "he" who makes this future covenant is the "prince that shall come" of verse 26, described in Daniel 11:26-27 as the "prince of the covenant" who is clearly described there in that passage as not Jesus Christ, but as the Antichrist.


- MM