Lyle Cooper (27
to Bill Griese (26 June 2011)"
post to Lyle wrote;
post, you openly admitted that your 'Sixth Seal is
Pre-70th week' view places the 'great tribulation'
mentioned in Rev 7:14 prior to the whole 70th week.
Matthew Chapter 24 clearly asserts that there is only one
period of time called the 'great tribulation' and it
follows the abomination of desolation."
Bill, you are reading into Matt. 24
what is NOT THERE. Yes, indeed, it does say, "for then shall
be great tribulation." What it does NOT say is that this is
the ONLY TIME there will be "great tribulation." Many
people believe Jesus put this title, "GREAT TRIBULATION" on
the last half of the week - but it is simply not true. In
fact, in the next verse, Jesus said, "except those days
should be shortened..." What days? It is understood,
"those days" of "great tribulation." Those days do not
extend for the full 1260 days. But for sure, there will be
"days" of great tribulation.
BUT: does this verse specify that those days is the ONLY
period of great tribulation? Of course it does not. It does
not speak of ANY OTHER TIME but those days in
question. Does God use these two words together
anywhere else? Of course He does.
Jesus, speaking through John in the letter to Thyatira,
speaking DIRECTLY to the false prophetess Jezebel, said
"Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit
adultery with her into great tribulation, unless
they repent of their deeds." Please remember, Jezebel
and those getting into her bed, were living in the time John
wrote these letters, about 95 AD. Therefore, there is
at least ONE OTHER TIME mentioned in scripture where these
two words together, "great tribulation," is NOT referring to
those days following the abomination.
Since Rev. 7 comes before the 70th week even starts, that
verse too, is referencing a time NOT SPEAKING of "those
days" following the abomination.
Sorry, Bill, but I disagree with you here.
Bill went on to write:
"21 For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be. (The Lord Jesus Christ makes it clear
that there is only one 'great tribulation' and it follows the
abomination of desolation)."
Bill, please let's read and understand
exactly what Jesus said. First, the two words, "great
tribulation" WERE NOT SUFFICIENT to describe "those days."
So Jesus added, "such as was not since the beginning of the
world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Therefore, we do not have just "great tribulation," but we
have it greater than any other time, including other times
of "great tribulation." Therefore, don't get so
fixated on these two words that you miss the intent of other
scriptures. Jesus was very plain that He could created days
of "great tribulation" for those committing adultery with
Jezebel, back in 95 AD. But those days, IF Jesus created
them, would not be greater than any other days of GT ever on
the earth. It is the same with the time of the rapture as
seen in Rev. 7: "“These are the ones who come out of
the great tribulation..." There is really nothing at
all here to tie this to the words of Jesus in Matthew 24, or
that same time period. In truth, it is NOT the same time
period that will come after the abomination, for John has
not yet even started the 70th week - much less gotten to the
midpoint where the abomination will happen. So
I will say again, Jesus did not say anywhere at anytime
that there was to be only ONE PERIOD of time in all
history that would be labled "great tribulation." In fact,
there are two other places in scripture where these two
words are used together, that certainly do NOT mean those
days of great tribulation that will follow the
Therefore, my previous post did not contradict anything that
Jesus said. There will be days of GT greater than any
other period of time ever, but there will also be great
tribulation on earth (NOT greater than any other time) at or
around the time of the rapture, as written by John.
Bill went on to write:
"29 Immediately after the tribulation of
those days (great tribulation) shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken: (This is the Sixth Seal)"(emphasis added)
Bill, you are certainly not the first to
proclaim that the signs written in Matthew 24 are the same
as those at the 6th seal, but you are certainly wrong.
They are not the same. The signs at the 6th seal are
the signs for the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The
signs given in Matthew 24 are the signs for Jesus second
coming. They are TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS GIVEN FOR TWO
DIFFERENT EVENTS. And they will be seen about 7 years
apart. Please note, in the first, the moon appears
as blood. (Perhaps a total eclipse.) But in the last (as
seen in Matthew 24) both the sun and moon are dark. If the
sun is dark, there is no light reflected off the moon, and
the moon will be invisible. Now, so you will never
struggle with this again, let's look at BOTH of these
signs as written in ONE BOOK.
1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in
my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land
tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is
nigh at hand;
What is Joel's theme here? It is the Day of the Lord.
NOT the coming of Our Lord, but the coming of the Day of the
Lord. Joel continues speaking of this Day of the Lord, until
He gets to this verse:
31The sun shall be turned into
darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and
terrible day of the LORD come.
There can be NO DOUBT, this is speaking of the signs of the
great Day of the Lord - NOT the coming of Jesus. Now, lets
move to Joel 3.
1For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when
I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2I will also gather all nations, and will bring
them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will
plead with them there for my people and for my heritage
Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and
parted my land.
WHEN will this gathering be? Where would it be in
Revelation? This verse is speaking of the gathering of the
nations for the battle of Armageddon. We find them gathered
ready to fight Jesus, in Rev. 19, AT JESUS SECOND
COMING. Joel goes on:
11Assemble yourselves, and come, all
ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round
about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the
valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to
judge all the heathen round about.
13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe:
come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats
overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision:
for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and
the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Now, WHEN is this? This is at the battle of Armegeddon. It
is found in Rev. 19, at the coming of Jesus on the white
horse. And here we DON'T read of a blood red moon - we read
that both the sun and moon are darkened. NEITHER are
seen. Joel continues:
16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his
voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth
shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people,
and the strength of the children of Israel.
17So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God
dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain:
Can there be any doubt that this is at the second coming?
Jesus is now in Jerusalem! So Joel has shown us TWICE
that these signs are seen: first as a sign for the
COMING or beginning of the day of the Lord, and then
again, at the coming of Jesus Christ on the white horse.
Bill goes on to write;
"The timing of the Sixth Seal of Rev
6:12-17 occurs in Matt 24:29-31 at Christ's Second Coming
in the sky, and then all the elect are gathered together
by the angels. This is the 'great multitude, which no man
could number' that is seen in Rev 7:9-17 coming out of the
'great tribulation'. This gathering together is the
Pre-Wrath Rapture, which I believe is the 2nd Rapture
event, and which I believe occurs about one year prior to
the end of the 70th week. The Wrath of God lasts about the
remaining one year. The word 'Day' is used in numerous
scriptures describing the Wrath of God, i.e. 'Day of the
Lord' and 'Day of Vengeance'. A 'Prophetic Week' is seven
years, therefore a 'Prophetic Day' is one year."
Sorry Bill, but these are only man's theories
that do not agree with what is written in the bible. The
events of the sixth seal are CERTAINLY NOT the same events
as seen in Matthew 24. Neither John nor God was that
confused as to the chronology of Revelation. Take a few
steps back and look at the whole picture of Revelation.
The seals start in Chapter 6. The trumpets start in
chapter 9. The vials begin in chapter 16. Just from this,
one can see that no seal can possibly be broken after any
of the trumpets, and no trumpet can possibly be sounded
after any of the vials. God is simply not that confused!
John wrote these events in the order in which they will
happen, with minor exceptions.
We find the beginning of the 70th week in Chapter 8, the
midpoint of the week in chapter 11, and the end of the week
in Chapter 16, again very chronological. Your theory
tries to push the END OF THE WEEK (Matthew 24:29-31) BEFORE
John starts the week. Rosenthal and Van Kampen both
MISSED the fact that there are two times these signs in the
sun and moon are shown, and that fact total blew their
entire theory of Revelation's chronology and the timing of
the days of great tribulation. If you put the rapture at the
6th seal, where John put it, and the days of GT AFTER the
abomination in chapter 11, where John put it, and the signs
in the sun and moon from Matthew 24 somewhere in chapter 19
(not seen by John, so not written) then there is no need to
rearrange Revelation at all. It is in perfect chronology.
Bill, ANY THEORY OF REVELATION THAT MUST REARRANGE JOHN'S
GOD GIVEN CHRONOLOGY IS IMMEDIATELY SUSPECT, AND WILL BE
Therefore, trying to make the 6th seal an event AFTER the
week is finished, will never work. IT IS REARRANGING THE
BOOK. The gathering in Matthew 24 IS NOT THE RAPTURE.
Matthew 24:31 ...they shall gather
together his elect from the four winds, from one end of
heaven to the other.
Bill, WHERE are the dead in Christ? They are UNDER THE EARTH
- not in heaven. They WERE in heaven, but Jesus brought them
will Him. So there will be NO GATHERING at the rapture, from
the heavens. Where are those that are alive and remain? Of
course, they are ON THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH. (Unless
there might be some minors in a coal mine, or someone in a
submarine.) Next, when we get our supernatural bodies,
we will FLY just as the angels; we will NOT NEED gathering
by the angels. Is it any wonder then, that Paul NEVER
MENTIONED angels gathering at HIS rapture? Just establish
this right now: this gathering in Matthew 24 is NOT THE
RAPTURE of the church. It is at the END of the 70th week,
while Paul's rapture is BEFORE the week. It is a gathering
from the heavens, while the rapture gathers from the earth.
And it is a gathering done by angels, while at the rapture
NO ANGELS NEEDED.
God's wrath begins in Rev. 6. Therefore, the rapture
MUST come before His wrath - and it does, as the FIRST EVENT
of the 6th seal. John has not yet even started the 70th
week, nor gotten to the midpoint. So the great
multitude as shown in Rev. 7 were raptured in Rev. 6 -
but John did not see it - he only saw the effects of it: the
church in the throne room after the rapture.
There is not one scripture that mentions a "second rapture."
Anyone can attempt to make doctrine of Old Testament
prophecies, and ignore the much more inclusive New Testament
prophecies. But an old Bible College professor once told us,
"when forming doctrine, make your main points from the
latest revelation on a given subject, and the most complete
revelation on a subject; then fill in missing pieces from
lessor scripture and older revelations." His point
was, God is a self revealing God, and over time reveals more
and more about any given subject. The book of Revelation is
the latest revelation, and it is by far the most complete.
Therefore, wisdom would dictate that we form our major
points of doctrine there, and fill in missing pieces of the
puzzle from Old Testament scriptures. Case in
Isaiah 34:8 "For it is the day of the
LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the
controversy of Zion." A "day of the Lord's
vengeance" refers to the wrath of God, and "a year of
recompences" indicates that this period will last for
about one year, the seventh 'day' of the 70th Week.
Is that the real meaning of the "Year of
recompences?" Can we find any reference to this in
Revelation? In Revelation we find that the days of
Great tribulation will begin shortly after the midpoint of
the week (Rev. 11) and go far into Chapter 16, when the
vials are being poured out. This will certainly be
longer than a year. Therefore, I will not say that the
"year or recompences" is speaking of a litteral year. The
CONTEXT, seems to be the battle of Armageddon.
Isaiah 63:4 For the day of vengeance
is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
I think this verse is speaking, not of a time
period of a whole year, but of a time of beginning. Like
we would say, "THIS is the year of the rapture," meaning
that the rapture will happen sometime during this year -
NOT that the rapture would be a year long event.
The Lord Jesus Christ also linked Noah's
Flood, which lasted for about one year, and was the Wrath
of God in it's time, to the end time events immediately
preceding the Second Coming, further illustrating that the
Wrath of God lasts for about one year.
Bill, I don't think this was AT ALL the intent
of this scripture. The only point Jesus was making with
Noah was the SUDDENNESS of the destruction: one day they
are living life to the fullest, as humans are want to do -
and the next day they are GONE. Notice, "FOR as in
the days that were BEFORE the flood..." And "until
the day.." Jesus then talked about the SUDDENNESS of the
destruction of Sodam and Gommorah. Again they were living
life to the fullest, right up until the brimstone began to
fall. The point Jesus was making in both of these stories
is; THERE WILL BE NO TIME TO PREPARE FOR ANYTHING. It will
Matt 24:37-39 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also
the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that
were before the flood they were eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe
entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came,
and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the
Son of man be.
Once again, if we refer to Daniel and Revelation, the last
half of the week will be 1260 days or 3 1/2 years. This is
far more than one year. Therefore, I suggest you find
another meaning for these old Testament scriptures.
Lyle, you and a couple others have gone
back and forth with me, basically over what boils down to
the "Moon terminology differences" in the above verses.
Your view claims that these differences indicate two
different events, while I have maintained that they are
all one event. Now you have admitted that your view
requires a 'great tribulation' prior to the beginning of
the 70th week. I would like to suggest to you that you
reexamine your view. The correct explanation for the "Moon
terminology differences" is that scripture sees no
difference between the moon turning into blood and the
moon not causing her normal light to shine. Notice that
Joel 2:31 and Isaiah 13:9-13 are both referencing the 'Day
of the Lord' which is the Wrath of God, and Joel 2:31 says
the Moon will be turned 'into blood' and Isaiah 13:9-13
says 'Moon shall not cause her light to shine'. This
proves that scripture sees no difference between these
phrases and that all these scriptures are referencing the
same event. Therefore, you can't place the Rev 6:12-17
Sixth Seal at the beginning of the 70th week and then
place the Matt 24:29-31 Second Coming in the sky at the
end of the 70th week, as your view attempts to do. The
fact that a 'Prophetic Day' means one year, places this
singular event one year before the end of the 70th week.
Therefore, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which scripture calls
the 'gathering together of the elect', occurs about one
year before the end of the 70th week.
Sorry that we disagree. Yes, we have gone back
and forth. But I will maintain that any doctrine or theory
that must rearrange the chronology of Revelation is
wrong. If you just stop and think for a moment: in
Joel 2 Joel is speaking of the Day of the Lord, aligned
with Rev. 6. But in Joel 3 he is speaking of the coming of
our Lord, which we find in Rev. 19. Bill, these two
chapters are 7 years apart in timing! Next, if the sun is
not shining, for whatever reason, NO LIGHT will be
reflected off the moon. I submit that the moon would be
invisible. Would that fit the description of "darkened?" I
think it would. During a total eclipse of the moon, the
sun is NOT SEEN, for it has been darkened by way of the
moon blocking the suns rays from the earth. So in that
case, the sun is dark and the moon appears blood red. That
just does not fit both the sun and moon being dark.
So I find both the description and the timing prove these
are two separate events.
If you will read EXACTLY what is written, Joel
tells us clearly that the signs of the sun dark and the
moon into blood comes BEFORE the day of the Lord.
But in Isaiah 13, we do not find that word. The text
in Isaiah is speaking of the SECOND time these signs are
seen, near the END of the week, just before Jesus returns.
Notice that this is DURING the day of the Lord.
Isaiah 13:13Therefore I will shake the
heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in
the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his
You have made several statements like this one,
and all are in error. This certainly does NOT prove only
one event. God back and study Joel 2 and 3 again and
again. You will see two totally different time frames in
the two chapters. In Joel 2, He CLEARLY states that the
signs will come BEFORE the day of the Lord. You cannot
bypass this or get around it in any way.
This proves that scripture sees no
difference between these phrases and that all these
scriptures are referencing the same event.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after
the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the
stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken:
NOtice that Jesus is AFTER "the tribulation of those days."
But Joel says it will be BEFORE the beginning of the Day of
the Lord. Both Van Kampen and Rosenthal wrestled with this,
and finally (erroneously) concluded that the days of GT MUST
then have been in the first five seals, and by the 6th seal
over. This is totally preposterous! John does not even
mention the Beast that will cause the GT until chapter 13!
There are verses that show conclusively that they days of GT
are ongoing in chapters 15 and 16. So either these
signs are shown twice (which is the truth) or the book of
Revelation is totally and completely out of order. Well, it
is NOT out of order! It is written in perfect chronological
order, with minor exceptions. Next, the ONLY way
your theory will work, is if you make the Day of the Lord
one 24 hour period in which Jesus returns. That is the only
way Joel 2:31 could be true. The day before Jesus returns it
is NOT the day of the Lord, but on the day He comes, it IS
the day of the LOrd. But does this theory agree with
Revelation chapters 4-18? Certainly NOT. John shows us that
the DAy of the Lord begins at the 7th seal. (or perhaps at
the earthquake at the 6th seal.) So we have the day of
the Lord then, continuing on through chapters 9,10,11,12,13,
14, 15, 16, 17,18,and 19, at least. This is what John
wrote. And John shows us in 12:6 and 13, that the
abomination has just happened in chapter 11 - so we KNOW
ABSOLUTELY that those days of GT will BEGIN somewhere after
This leaves only ONE option: these signs are seen TWICE.
That one admittance solves all problems.
I am sure we will continue to disagree: but at least the
readers will know why I believe as I do.