Pastor Bob (25 Jan 2015)
""Israel and the Church""

All Doves:

There is NO Biblical evidence that the Church began either with Adam or Abraham, or that it existed in the Old Testament era or even during the earthly life of Christ -(Matthew 16:18).  While the word 'church' is mentioned 77X in 76 verses, they all are in the New Testament.  Matthew's Gospel only notes Jesus' words using the word twice.  Matthew 16:18 and 18:17.  The bulk of the references are found in the book of Acts, and interestingly so, it appears 7X in the 'Revelation of Christ Jesus'.  There again is that Heptadic signature of God again "7" and "77".

The following threads of evidence clarify the truth about the distinction between 'Israel' and the 'Church'.  Pay close attention to the Biblical Truth evidence:

The first bit of evidence that the 'Church' is distinct from 'Israel' is found in the fact that the 'Church' was birthed at Pentecost.  This is based on the relationship of 'Spirit-baptism' to the 'Church'.  According to Colossians 1:18, the 'Church' is the body of Christ. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."  First Corinthians 12:13 teaches that entrance into this 'body' is by 'Spirit-baptism', "For by one Spirit we are baptized into one body, whether we be Jew or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one spirit."   However, Acts 11:15-16 ("And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as on us the beginning.  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost")  teaches that 'Spirit-baptism' was not instituted until the Holy Spirit came upon the Jewish believers in Acts 2:1-4.  You can read the text for yourself, no need for me to type it all.

The second bit of evidence of distinction between the 'Church' and 'Israel' is that three specific events in the life of the Messiah were prerequisites to the establishment of the 'Church'. and so the 'Church' could not have come into being until these evens had taken place.

    1.  His death by which the atonement was provided. -(Matthew 16:18-21)
    2.  The resurrection of Jesus.  -(Ephesians 1:20-23)
    3.  The ascension of Jesus.  -(Ephesians 4:7-11)

The Holy Spirit was not given until AFTER Christ's ascension.

The third bit of evidence that shows distinction between the 'Church' and 'Israel' is the "Mystery" characteristics of the 'Church'.  In Biblical terminology, the word "mystery" is often used to describe a New Testament truth not revealed in the Old Testament.  -(Ephesians 3:3-5, 9; Colossians 1:26-27). 

Four features of the Church exist that were never revealed in the Old Testament:

    1.  The concept of Jewish and Gentile believers united into one body.  -(Ephesians 3:1-12);
    2.  The doctrine of Messiah indwelling every believer.  -(Colossians 1:24-27; 2:10-19; 3:4, 11);
    3.  The 'Church' as the bride of Messiah.   -(Ephesians 5:22-32);
    4.  The Rapture, with its corollary events of the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" and the transition into heaven of the living believers.  -(1 Corinthians 15:50-58).

The fourth bit of evidence that the 'Church' is distinct from 'Israel' is the concept of the "one new man" in Ephesians 2:15.  This "one new man" is distinguished from both 'Israel' and the Gentiles and is, comprised of believing members from both, identified as the 'Church' in Ephesians 2:16 ("the body") and Ephesians 3:6 ("same body").

The fifth bit of evidence is that the same three groups are distinguished from each other in 1st Corinthians 10:32:  "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God."  This verse is a contrast made well after the Church had been established.

The sixth of evidence is the fact that the term 'Israel' is never used of the 'Church'.  In the New Testament. It is either used of the Jews in general or Jewish believers in particular.  Galatians 6:16 speaks about the subject of Jewish believers.  "Judaizers" or Jews who demanded adherence to the Law of Moses, were deceiving Gentiles to obtain salvation through the Law.  To them, a Gentile had to convert to Judaism before he qualified for salvation through Christ Jesus.  In verse 15, Paul states that the important thing for salvation is faith, resulting in the "new man".8-)  He also mentions two elements of the Church: circumcision and uncircumcision.  These two elements refer to two groups of people; believing Jews and believing Gentiles.  These two entities of the Church are also identified by these very same terms in Galatians 2:7-8

There is a real big question that keeps coming to the surface at web sites that deny the distinction between 'Israel' and the 'Church'?  Why do people incessantly refuse to recognize the distinction between 'Israel' and the 'Church'?  It is both mystical and satanic.  It is anti-semitic!  Here is an example of that anti-semitism by a major denomination declared within the last two weeks.

Just over a week ago the United Presbyterian Church PCA voted that Presbyterians should not mention the name of Israel in their prayers.  It wasn't enough that at its last General Session' gathering to vote to divest itself of investments in Israeli businesses or other companies that did business with Israel such as Caterpillar Equipment Co. to broadcast to the world "we do not like Israel", but they want to beat up on the State of Israel once more by publicly telling its congregations not to include Israel in their prayers; acting and sounding like a spoiled child is simply infantile, and even more to call God a liar, since we are called by Scripture to "pray for the peace of Jerusalem" in Psalm 122:6.  Make no mistake about it, praying for the peace of Jerusalem is praying for the peace of Israel.  It is hard to separate the two, its something like trying to cut the baby in half as Solomon spoke in 1st Kings 3:25.  Such action by the UPCUSA is both shameful and blasphemous!

Last year I provided the reader a listing of twenty distinct differences that differentiated between 'Israel' and the 'Church'.  They were not my words, but rather the words from the Bible itself!   Someone took me to task because I left off a verse supporting a single point, when in fact, there was no need to do so since it was a given.  None the less, since that post the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" site never lost a drum beat in their "Energizer" bunny drum beat proclaiming there is no difference between 'Israel' and the 'Church'.  The above list of Biblical evidence provides a Biblical basis for distinction between 'Israel' and the 'Church'.  Most of you may not know this but the Jehovah Witnesses believe they are "Spiritual Israel" and that they have "replaced Israel", their own approach to "Replacement Theology". 

In Catholic theology, Israel lost all rights and promises offered by God to humanity because they, the Jews,  rejected their Messiah and blamed His death on them [the Jews].  We know that to be untrue from Scripture since it was part of the Creator's Plan, and Jesus said He laid His life down, no one could take it unless He gave it up.  Today, only the Roman Catholic still claims to speak on behalf of God, and therefore because they and the pope as the so-called vicar of Christ have condemned the Jews to hell.  Contrary to what you may think those anathemas are still on the books. In fact, Bishop Richard Williams, stated so in October of 2011.  The lessons of Paul in Romans 9, 10, and 11 negate such nonsense interpretation of the Biblical message.  The Roman Catholic Catechism is still engrained into the spirit of many ex-Catholics, such to the point that their bias of anti-Semitism shows through in their theological worldview.  The Jesuits tell you, give us a child til he is six or seven and we will have a Catholic for life.  The wag at that other site has noted she has a Catholic background and upbringing.

In concluding, those who deny or reject the distinction between 'Israel' and the 'Church' are anti-Semitic.  A second reason that prevents folks from recognizing the distinction between 'Israel' and the 'Church' is they can't accept Dispensationalism, despite the fact the term is Biblical and found no less than four times in the Bible, 1st Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 1:10; Ephesians 3:2; and Colossians 1:25.    A third reason is that they have a difficult time accepting Grace.  A fourth reason is that they are legalists. 

They allow little or no room for God's Grace!  This is most evident by those that argue your salvation depends on what your view is toward the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  The host of the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" site is always asking for a specific verse to prove the Pre-Tribulation Rapture because he says there is none.  The Apostle Paul called it a "Mystery".  Can he show you or I a single verse that supports his view concerning a Pre-Wrath Rapture, and that our salvation rides on our belief in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?  To do so is to walk a dangerous road in defining the requirements of salvation.  I'll address that in another post because their latest inflammatory posts causes many to wonder what drives this kind of demented thinking to attack the Five Doves web site, the people that post on it, and even the host himself gets attacked by this individual.  I do not know him, don't even know his name, I know absolutely zip other than to recognize what kinds of excrement that he posts.  I can tell that he is vain by his boasting of the numbers of followers on his FB page.  As I said, I am surprised that he doesn't post 'selfies'.  That would at least confirm for sure that he is a narcissist. 

I have been studying the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" site for some length of time, almost two years.  He puts up posts about an average of every 5-10 minutes throughout much of the day, breaking for lunch and dinner, drawing on multiple Scripture readings from Charles Spurgeon's devotional readings as to make the site look to be orthodox with lots of poster's.  He is posting video clips from a wide assortment of others that he is using to fill up his daily viewing material, all with no rhyme or reason.  Clearly it is evident that the man has some disturbed messianic complex characteristics.  If the site was truly about the Truth as he says, then I would think he would be more discrete in choosing what he puts up for the viewer.  A large number of his posts border on the bizarre and fanatical fringe.  Many of the posts are repeated routinely on what might be some sort of schedule or repetition.  The posting schedule precludes one having gainful employment or otherwise he would not be able to post every 5-10 minutes.  This brings up additional questions.

He posts articles and teachings by Seventh Day Adventists, Gnostics, pseudo-scholars, want-a-be theologians, Joe Ortiz, and we should not ignore Robert Van Kampen, who established the Pre-Wrath Rapture theology 40-years ago, and Marv Rosenthal who Robert Van Kampen helped finance the publishing of a book on his Pre-Wrath Rapture theory, along with lots of dribble that is far from the truth that he so brags that he offers his audience. 

Robert Van Kampen was a multi-millionaire and gave away thousands and thousands of copies of his book during the late 1970's and 1980's and early 1990's.  To help the reader to understand the errors of Robert Van Kampen, Marv Rosenthal, and the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, I encourage the readers to google an extensive article by Cooper Abrams at "Fatal Flaws in the Modern Pre-Wrath Rapture Position."  There are many other scholars that have dissected the Pre-Wrath view, however, Cooper Abrams is by far the most thorough and very understandable. 

Back when Bob Van Kampen was sending out complimentary copies to pastors, many liberal pastors were deceived by a book that they now had thought had a good book on prophecy which could provide them an overview of Bible prophecy that seminary had not equipped them about.  Most liberal American denominational seminaries did not teach Bible prophecy, nor do they teach it today, to their students so graduates were highly vulnerable to books like Marv Rosenthal and Bob Van Kampen.  I received a complimentary copy at a time there was little or nothing in the Christian book market pertaining to prophecy beyond Hal Lindsey's book, 'The Late Great Planet Earth'.  Imagine yourself a pastor receiving a free copy in the mail at the time when lay people in the church were interested in what the Bible said about prophecy.  Think about how you would react on the impact of receiving a free book on the Rapture, in error, but none the less "free".  It took me a year to digest the book and compare its pros and cons.  I knew many of my fellow pastors that swallowed the Rosenthal/Van Kampen deception, some even left the pastorate.  All 'mainline' Protestant denominations since the early twentieth-century (1910-1920) have taught an "amillenial" (no-millennium) position.  In Eschatology matters [on last things] Protestant churches were akin to Roman and Greek Orthodox Catholics in every respect.

Those of you wanting a better understanding of the host of that site should read the 'Huffington Post' health article on "18 signs you're dealing with a narcissist".  If he is so all about Truth, why does he continuously and persistently post the excrement with empty sensational headlines but when you go to the meat of the post, there is little or nothing and it was just a dead end with nothing important to say or simply a distraction.  The "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" site is the equivalent of super-market tabloid journalism, but with a so-called Christian flavor.  The nearest he comes to posting solid or real Biblical scholarship learning is Pastor Mike Hoggard,  On most of the issues the snake posts you get the re-incarnated voice of SDA-heretic Ellen G. White in the body of Mr. Stephen Wohlberg, another of the deceived leading the blind.

The snake is busted - read on!

The host of the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" site posted on his site this week a post with this statement "How About Betting Your Salvation on a 7 yr Pre-Tribulation Rapture?" on Monday January 19th at 2:09 pm by Steven.   This retort come-back as a hack at my closing statement on my post "Comfort One Another With These Words"His post implies and infers our salvation is at risk for believing the Bible's teachings!   Then came on Tuesday January 29th at 6:20 am by Steven, this post: "If you believe in a 7-yr Pre-Tribulation Rapture You Are Going Against God's Word! This post shows the mental state of a very troubled and unstable person.  He begins by posting a couple of SDA-heretic Stephen Wohlberg videos, and an incredibly long post ranting on how we are all being deceivedYet the host denies he is a SDA follower, but he then immediately puts Stephen Wohlberg's videos up for all to view.  What does that tell you??  He then goes on to quote from a book, that if my memory serves me correctly, is a "Witness" - a "JW" author.  He quotes from Adam Rutherford's book on 'Bible Chronology'  I could be wrong but I don't think so on this because from my distant memory I recall faintly that Adam Rutherford was a Jehovah's Witness.  So the big question from my observation is this, which group - SDA's or JW's does the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" site represent, despite their denials to the contrary??

Read the following paragraph very closely:

On Thursday he posted another denial "Thank You! God is adding to this site daily!  1,245 FB Followers!: No 7 yr Pre-Tribulation Rapture!!!.  The date of the post was Thursday January 22, 2015 at 8:56 AM by Steven.  Then the snake refers the reader to a well-known 7th Day Adventist web site called the 'Seventh Day Remnant Church On-Line'.  In their site they offer info on where one can find one of their churches that may be near you.  In a pre-qualifier they ask some questions of what you believe, in giving your contact info, and one of the questions was:  they ask you if you believe Ellen G. White is a prophetess of God?   She is the co-founder of the SDA Cult!  The web site's name is "Presents of God" and their web site also goes by www.Remnant of  Well, make no mistake about it, the "1,245 FB Followers" are being led by the pied piper of the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" web site. The evidence speaks for itself.  The snake always refer his readers to SDA sites, videos, individuals named above.  I rest my case!!!!!  You decide who is lying!   The "Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum" is a snare of a snake in the grass for the Seventh Day Adventist Cult/Church what ever you care to call it.  So so so deceptive and dishonest.  You don't have to take the words of an old preacher, simply go to the two sites noted above where the snake is sending his viewers to! 

The tone and level of this particular post: from Tuesday January 20th at 6:20 am points to someone who falls into the Jehovah Witness camp, despite using some orthodox Christian terminology.  Also, could the host of the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" site be
a 'closet' 'brain-washed Jehovah Witness??????   Sure does sound like he is either a "SDA" believer or a "JW" mind-controlled cult follower.   If not he is a very confused person.  He posts round the clock as if it is his full-time job.  Those SDA posts did not simply walk in the door on their own behalf, they or he have to search the Internet to find those posts.  I sure would like to know how he can afford to keep a web site up and running 24/7/365 with him and his wags.  Who sponsors the site, pays the expenses like servers and archives to keep it functioning?  Could it be the Watch Tower Society?   I know that the Internet is NOT FREE for those with web sites.  Sure, you can say its none of my business, and I could agree to a point, unto where his disinformation causes confusion in the minds of sincere seekers of eternal matters.   A site like the "Pre-Wrath Rapture Babble" takes some deep pockets from what I know what others pay for running their web sites.  Could it be White Horse (Mark Wohlberg) Media?  Could it be deep pockets of the SDA cult or the JW?  Could it be the Watchtower Society.  Lots of questions but few answers.  I'm too old to believe for one minute that  he and his site exists for egalitarian motives, not with his messiah complex.

In my post of January 18th, I offered a reasonable suggestion to him.  Since, as I recall from visiting his site long before I began posting on Five Doves last year, he first attacked Five Doves long before I called him out for his rants and claims.  In fact, it was his rants and attacks last year against the Five Doves web site and our host that led me to put my "two cents" on the table.  My first post of the year came last week after he took his pot shots at this site and its host.  I had no plans of posting last fall until he launched a verbal attack at Five Doves a few weeks back.  If he stays in his own backyard and drops his attacks against Five Doves and our host, I will be glad to focus my posts on substantive Blblical topics such as the Pre-Trib Rapture and other topics.  However, so long as he wants to attack the host of this site and others I have no intention of ignoring or let slide his lies, insults, or disparaging remarks or bogus bizarre theology,   Otherwise don't plead martyrdom and victim by those of us who take him to task.  It is simple as quit knocking the Five Doves site!

The snake has been Busted! and yet he has the audacity to still dare to quote passages like this one: "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ".  This is from 2nd Corinthians 11:13, from another of his posts, it appears in his postings of Thursday January 22nd, 2015 at 10:26 AM.  He lies about as much as President Barack Hussein Obama!

Keep looking up, our redemption draws nigh!

Pastor Bob