Marilyn Agee (16 Jan 2012)
"Ray Schultz: (11 Jan 2012) Re: Marilyn Agee (9 Jan 2012) No Rapture before Antichrist has been revealed"

From: Marilyn Agee

Re: Ray Schultz: (11 Jan 2012) Re: Marilyn Agee (9 Jan 2012)

> > No Rapture before Antichrist has been revealed

> > According to Marilyn Agee, there are two translation mistakes in the 2 Thess 2:1-3 passage in the KJV.

(1)   The ”day of Christ” should be the Day of the Lord, and

(2)   “A falling away first” should read “departing” first.”

> > Marilyn cited various English translations to make her point.  

> > I took a different approach. I examined two different Greek New Testaments and discovered results that conflict with her two claims.

(1)   > > The name Xristou (Christ) prominently stands out in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 therefore the KJV use of the “day of Christ” is correct.

(2)   > > There are two similar words in the Greek language that express separation. One of them, Strong’s G647 (apostasion), expresses something “separative” like a divorce. The other word, Strong’s G646 (apostasia) expresses defection from the truth – “falling away.” Both my Greek New Testaments use G646 (apostasia) in this passage to indicate a defection from the truth.

> > I conclude that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:3 are both correctly translated in the KJV. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Paul communicated a “falling away” from the truth, not a departure (as in the Rapture. Therefore I stand by my conclusion that 2 Thessalonians 2 is telling me that the Rapture will not happen before “the man of sin” has been revealed.

> > Ray Schultz

“Look Up! Ministries”

Hi Ray;

I apologize for not explaining enough for you to be able to understand what 2 Thess 2:1-3 is really talking about. My husband died Dec 27, then my computer died Jan. 11. The new computer is not yet online. I copied what you wrote by hand using my son’s computer and a hand-held magnifier, typed it in on the new computer, and will send it when I get online.

> > The name Xristou (Christ) prominently stands out in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 therefore the KJV use of the “day of Christ” is correct.

Let’s read the heading of the book and 2 Thess 2:1,2 (KJV) as it appears in my Scofield Bible. RB Thieme said that Scofield was a genius. This is what he wrote:

“The theme of Second Thessalonians is, unfortunately, obscured by a mistranslation in the A.V. of 2:2, where “day of Christ is at hand” (1 Corinthians 1:8 note) should be, “day of the Lord is now present” (Isa. 2:12 refs.). The Thessalonian converts were “shaken in mind” and “troubled,” supposing, perhaps on the authority of a supposed letter as from Paul, that the persecutions from which they were suffering were those of the “great and terrible day of the LORD,” from which they had been taught to expect deliverance by “the day of Christ, and our gathering together unto him” (2:1).

The present letter, then, was written to instruct the Thessalonians concerning the day of Christ, “and our gathering together unto him” (1 Thes. 4:14-17) and the relation of the “day of Christ” to the “day of the LORD.” First Thessalonians had more in view the “day of Christ”; the present epistle “the day of the LORD.”


“Part III, the Day of the Lord and the man of sin.

“Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM (i.e., at the First-Trump Rapture), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”.

Our gathering together unto him (the First-Trump Rapture) is the day of Christ. The Tribulation saints’ gathering together unto him (the Last-Trump Rapture) is on the Day of the Lord just before God’s Wrath is poured out on Earth (Rev 6:17; 7:14).


After the KJV (1611 AD) was translated from the Greek texts of Erasmus (1516 AD) and Robert Stevens (1550 AD), three OLDER Greek manuscripts were found.

We should go by THE OLDEST AVAILABLE, the Siniatic Codex (311 AD).

I have a hard copy of the Tischendorf New Testament, so I will copy some of what Tischendorf wrote in the Introduction. He found the oldest complete Greek Bible we have, the Siniatic Codex, in 1844 and 1859, at the Convent of St. Catherine on the Sinai Peninsula. This is the most valuable New Testament we have. It is dated “in the middle of the fourth century.” It seems to be one of the 50 that Constantine had made in 331 AD. It contains both the Old and New Testaments, and EVERY LETTER OF THE NEW TESTAMENT HAS BEEN PRESERVED FOR US, plus most of the Old Testament.


Tischendorf wrote, “The authorized version, like Luther’s was made from a Greek text which Erasmus in 1516, and Robert Stevens in 1550, had formed from manuscripts OF LATER DATE THAN THE TENTH CENTURY….Since the sixteenth century Greek manuscripts have been discovered of far greater antiquity than those of Erasmus and Stevens; as others in Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Gothic , into which languages the sacred text was translated between the second and fourth centuries…one thing is agreed upon by the majority of those who understand the subject, namely, that the oldest copies approach the original text more nearly than the latter ones….

“These three manuscripts undoubtedly stand at the head of all the ancient copies of the New Testament, and it is by their standard that both the early editions of the Greek text and the modern versions are to be compared and corrected.”


(1)   The Siniatic Codex (probably 331 AD)

(2)   The Alexandrine Codex (1078 AD)

(3)   The Vatican Codex (1475 or 1481).


At 2 Thess 2:2 in the Tischendorf New Testament, the note says, “SVA the day of the Lord”, i.e., all three of the oldest manuscripts, Siniatic, Vatican and  Alexandrine, say “the day of the Lord”.

A note in my Scofield Bible says, “Day of the LORD, See Isa 2:12 ref.”

Isa 2:9-12  says, “And the mean man dieth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive (Heb. NASA, LIFT UP, ARISE, TAKE UP, i.e., rapture) them not 10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD (Rev 6:17), and for the glory of his majesty. 11 The  lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the hautiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the DAY OF THE LORD OF HOSTS (Christ, Isa   44:6) shall be on everyone that is proud and lofty. And upon everyone that is LIFTED UP (Heb. NASA); and he shall be brought low.”

Note: “Day (of Jehovah) vs 10-22; Isa 4:1-6; Isa 2:10-22; Rev 19:11-21”

Therefore, I accept that the passage in question is talking about the DAY OF THE LORD, which is also the day of the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54, the Day of God’s Wrath, at the end of the Tribulation, not the Day of Christ, which is the First-Trump Rapture of I Thess 4:16,17.

At the First-Trump Rapture of I Thess 4:16,17, the saints become incorruptible, but not immortal. At the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54, all saints, including Paul, will become immortal in the twinkling of an eye.

All the English Bibles translated before the KJV (1611) had “departing first”. Jim Bramlett published those quotes on Five Doves and I have published them several times on my website.

Here is what I wrote in my Scofield Bible:

Wycliffe (1384) says, “departynge first”

Tyndale (1526) says, “departynge first”

Cranmer (1531) says, “departynge first”

Coverdale (1535) says, “departynge first”

Breeches (1576) says, “departing first”

Beza (1583) says, “departing first”

Geneva (1587)  says, “departynge first”

The Latin Vulgate used discessio, which means departure.

2 Thess 2:3,4 (KJV) says, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (i.e., a departing first), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

There are only two sons of perdition, Judas Iscariot and the False Prophet. Satan enters into both. Those are the two comings of Satan.

Rev 12:9 says, “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world, he was cast out INTO the earth”.

Rev 13:11 says, “And I beheld another beast (Satan) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns (i.e., two  comings to power) like a lamb (Christ), and he spake as a dragon.”

Rev 17:8 says, “And the beast that thou sawest (Satan) was (in Judas Iscariot, the first son of perdition), and is not (in man now); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition (the last son of perdition, the False Prophet): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast (Satan) that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), and yet is (exists).”

Rev 17:11 says, “And the beast (Satan) that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition” (i.e., into the False Prophet, the last son of perdition).

There are some that say the Day of the Lord is the last half of the Tribulation, but it is the Day of God’s Wrath at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. Joel 1:15 says, “Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.”

Not only is the Day of the Lord the day of destruction, it is the Day of Jacob’s Trouble. It is the day Babylon is taken.

Many years ago, I saw a rectangle of light on Jer 50:2 in a darkened bedroom at twilight. The interlined draperies were closed. After writing about the three Babylons, Nimrod’s, Nebuchadnezzar’s and the False Prophet’s, almost all day on my husband’s old hard-to-punch manual typewriter, I was tired. Saying to myself, “Why am I doing all this?” I threw myself down across the bed with my closed Bible in my hand. It popped open in front of my face, and a rectangle of light was on Jer 50:2. It said, “Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish and conceal not: say Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.” I have been studying and writing ever since.

Babylon will be taken on the Day of the LORD.  Joel 2:1-4 says, “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion (i.e., it is the Feast of Trumpets), and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand: A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (i.e., Gog’s army, Eze 38); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.”

Agape, Marilyn