Hi Doves,Now that we have safely landed in 2011 with no rapture or seven year peace treaty signaling the commencement of Daniel's 70th week, it behooves us to begin looking at timelines once again. I think we can all say that the timeline of 2010-2017 is pretty much under water. I think even Daniel Matson who gave us a tremendous study and account of the 2010-2017 timeline would agree that it is under water. The arguments seemed reasonable for such a timeline. But we have passed 2010 so we must conclude that theory is not the correct timeline. Now, I see some who are stretching the timeline to 2011-2018. I personally believe the further we get out in years for a timeline it begins to erode such important markers such as Jubilees and eclipses. We may not all agree on the exact year of the next Jubilee, but the coming eclipses of the sun and moon are set in stone. The years 2014-2105 will bring about a number of eclipses happening on or near Jewish feasts days. I think we all agree Mark Biltz has done us an extraordinary job by identifying these events.So where do we begin to identify another possible timeline. If we go out another 50 years to the next Jubilee; 2067 or around there, it becomes almost laughable that Christ would tarry that much longer. I'm not buying that one. But what if we take a look back to the future. Back in late July and early August of 2010 there was quite a debate on Doves for a couple of days on timelines. Namely, we had the most reasonable and favorite timeline of many (2010-2017) pitted against a less popular timeline of 2008-2015. Some of the biggest proponents of the 2008-2015 timeline are Ron Reese and Renee M. I believe the 2008-2015 timeline was unpopular for a couple of main reasons.1) We did not see a seven year peace treaty signed in 20082) There was no way we as Christians could enter the seven year tribulationThese seemed to be primary stumbling blocks to the 2008-2015 timeline. After all, scripture seems to indicate there will be a covenant with the many for one week, and God will spare His children from the Tribulation by rapturing us. We allknow the verses that back these statements up. Not much disagreement with that. However, as Ron Reese and others have mentioned in past posts perhaps we need to alter our traditional dispensational views from what we had been taught. As we look at scripture, nowhere does it say that "he" will make a seven year peace treaty with Israel and other nations. It say, "He will make a firm covenant with the many for one week." Somehow most of us have translated that verse to mean a seven year peace treaty. Could we be wrong?Also, the issue of believers entering the tribulation seems uncsriptural.Certainly against the ways of most pre-tribbers. But what if we have misunderstood that line of thought. Could it be we may enter Daniel's 70th week but be spared tribulation? Could it be that the 70th week and tribulation are not synonymous? Does scripture talk about a 7 year tribulation? All good questions. What if the tribulation is not 7 years. Perhaps say only 5 years, with the last 3 1/2 yearsbeing the great tribulation. If we look closely at scripture, there does seem to be supporting evidence that the tribulation is not 7 years, unlike Daniels 70th week.Fellow Dove Stefen Lopez, wrote a post August 9th entitled," Amidst Much Clamor" This post is one of the most exceptionally well thought out writings advocating a possibility of the 2008-2015 timeline. Stefen avoids speculation to large degree and focuses on road signs or markers leading to a specific date. Whatever your preconceived notions are with regards to the start of the 70th week and the 7 year tribulation, this article is meticulous in detailing the road signs. In other words, he is stating factual events that have occurred or will occur. Yes, assumptions are made. For the sake of argument let's just say a covenant with the many was made October 29,2008. Obama gave a speech entitled, "A message to the Common Man" Please, if you haven't read it, goggle the message and a text of it should appear. It's very enlightening. So even if you think this is way off base, just "pretend" it's "the" covenant and read Stefen's article below. If nothing else, it will at least make you aware again of the important road signs.IMHO, without stretching timelines, or going another 50+ years out, this timeline is at least a plausible consideration. In light of all the others signs pointing to Christ's soon return, let's take another look at 2008-2015. Below is Stefen's article. It's a good read. It also give us hope for a very soon rapture.Blessings,Steve W.
Stefen L (9 Aug 2010)
"Amidst Much Clamor"
For one thing there does not need to be this much vehement disputing over a topic that is open to so much interpretation and debate. I suspect this is why prophecy is not a topic that is covered very much in churches nowadays; because there's so many different viewpoints. However, this being a prophecy forum, people are free to post their ideas about prophecy and end time events...and let me assure you not everyone is going to be on the same page. I like to think of Five Doves as an underground prophecy discussion site, as things discussed here are not discussed in mainstream media or even churches. Could you imagine if Pastor John Hagee came out with a sermon entitled, "Christ returns on September 23, 2015", how the media would be all over that. So here we can discuss these things and have fun with it...I like writing about this stuff because its something I've been interested in since I was a kid. Back then I'd read about the sun turning black and the moon to blood before the coming day of the Lord, and thought that somehow there would be so much fire and smoke and destruction on Earth, that it would black out the sun, but never understood how it could black out the sun but not the moon which is less bright. But of course, nowadays we know this is in reference to a solar and lunar eclipse (which happens to be on the feast days by the way)...and so it all makes sense.
Its the pattern which leads us to a date, verses the date having any significance of its own. My position is not the date itself, but all the markers which point to this date. For instance, the bible is clear that the day of the Lord will be preceded by the sun being darkened and the moon to blood. It states this in numerous places such as Joel 2:30, Isaiah 13: 9-11, Rev. 6:12 and others. As it turns out, there is a cluster of solar and lunar eclipses; 6 to be exact starting from Passover 2014, to the remaining 5 in 2015, all occurring on biblical feast days, with the last 2 taking place on Roshashanna and Sukkoth, which are nearly 7 days within either direction of Atonement. Coincidence? Then, we got the 3 Solar eclipses all occurring on Av 1st in 2008, 2009, 2010. Coincidence? Then you got the 7 weeks of Daniel which break down to 17460 day (49yrs x 360 days), from 6/7/67 taking us to Atonement 2015, right in the middle of those last 2 eclipses on Trumpets and Tabernacles. Coincidence? Then, if you apply that date of 9/23/15 (which suggests Christ's return at the end of the Tribulation) and work back 2520 days, you come to Oct. 29, 2008, and Obama making his "covenant" or "promise" to many via his message, "A message to the common man". Daniel 9 tells us that the last week, or tribulation will start off with a "covenant" made to "many". Coincidence? Then, if you forward 1260 days from that point, which would be the middle of the "proposed" tribulation, you come to April 11, 2012 when the antichrist is to stand in the temple and claim he's God...and that date is Passover 2012. Coincidence? A hypothesis of mine is the antichrist will be mortally wounded on that day, come back to life via the devil, and claim he is Christ b/c Christ died on Passover and was resurrected 3 days later. Then jump over to Daniel 12:11 and it says, "and from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days. If you subtract 1290 days from 9/23/15 you come to March 12, 2012 which is exactly 1 month prior to the middle point of 4/11/12; possibly suggesting that there is a 30 day period from the time the sacrifice is taken away...to the time the abomination of desolations is set up...at that point it is now April 11, 2012. Coincidence? Then if you apply the 1335 days, from April 11, 2012...you end up at December 7, 2015...which is Hanukah! which is the celebration of the dedication of the temple(blessed is he who comes to the 1335 days). Coincidence? Then, as if we need any more proof...2014-15 is the 49th year shmita from Jubilee Sept 23, 1966-67. If you take 365.25 days x 49 years (49th shmita yr) from the start of Jubilee Sept 23, 1966 we come to September 23, 2015 being the very first day of Jubilee. Coincidence?
Once again, this is not about a date, it is about a long list of patterns and events pointing to a date, which just so happens to be Atonement. I mean look at the paragraph above and all the information in it...this stuff is not made up, and the thing is it can't be duplicated either. If you base Christ's second coming on any date other than 9/23/15, you wont get the midpoint of tribulation being Passover. You wont get the 1335 days from that midpoint being Hanukah. Any other date would be outside the count from
Israelcapturing on 6/7/67, which was a Jubilee year, and the date we ought to count from since it was Jubilee. Any other date and you wont get a solar and lunar eclipse nearly 7 days before, and 7 days after Atonement...which is what the prophecies indicate...Joel 2:30, Isaiah 13:9-11. Any other date, and the Solar eclipses which all occurred on the 1st of Av, starting in 2008, and I believe announcing the trib., have no meaning. Any other date, and timing of the shmita years is comprimised. Consider, just like the 1965-66 shmita, leading into the Jubilee of 1966-67, we got the next upcoming shmita of 2014-15, and any other date such as 2017, 2018, ect. and there is a 1-2 year gap from the last shmita, which is outside the sequence of things. And the list goes on. Jerusalem
Think of a Rubiks cube. In order for it to be solved, all sides have to be flush. If you just even got 1 square that is out of sync, the whole thing is wrong. This is how I view the second coming. All conditions and prophecies have to be met. You cant have Christ returning on a Jubilee year that is completely void of solar and lunar eclipses, as was prophesied, or his return on a date which confirms the 7 weeks prophecy, but ignores the Jubilee, or on a year that has all the eclipses on biblical feast days, but ignores the Jubilee, and 7 weeks, and anything else for that matter...b/c then there will be an inconsistency.
The 9/23/15 timeframe is the most accurate date we got, as everything fits within it, there is no unmatching square in this particular "cube". The rapture not happening yet is more than explained in the story of Joseph...which by the way...I first heard on a John Hagee teaching. The only thing that appeared to be inconsistent was the Jubilee issue. But the thing is God never instructed the Israelites to measure a Jubilee from the last one. The count was to be based on jubilee taking place the year after the 7th Sabbath year (49th yr). I suspect this was done for a reason, because if you count 50 + 50 + 50, etc, you have Jubilees which begin drifting in an uncelebrated way over the "every 7th Sabbath" which is 49 +49 +49. This is drift, and when it occurs you can't apply the "every 7th Sabbath" principle, be/c an extra year (50th) year is continuously added each Jubilee, such that the first 49 years + 1 is Jubilee, the next is 50 + 1 is Jubilee, the third is 51 +1 is Jubilee, and so on. We have the same problem with our calendar, if they are not calibrated every 4 years in the form of a leap year, then within a couple centuries we'd be celebrating July 4th in the dead of winter! The same concept applies with Jubilees, and the every 7th year. So the remedy is to count that 50 yr Jubilee as also the 1st year of the 7 or 49 year cycle. When you do this, every 50th yr jubilee is like that leap year, but instead subtracts a year as not to compromise the every 7th/49th year, but still allows for a Jubilee every 50th year...so both problems are solved. I made a chart on this yesterday.
When I set out to talk about something, I make sure I have all my facts straight and I make numerous example to justify this. When my post is scrutinized, I continuously here things like, well the "evidence suggests 2017". What evidence? A jubilee that was apparently cherry picked? What about everything else, Jubilee is just one aspect of it. And please, if I hear, "Well, technically, no one ever made a decree to restore
". or "The decree was made when a construction company began building"...I am going to explode into a million pieces and my girlfriend will not be happy cleaning up the mess;) But seriously though, June 7, 1967 is the most recognized date amongst scholars, teachers, you name it, for determining the countdown of the 7 weeks. If it doesn't make sense and seems false...well that is an issue that is beyond my scope in debating...I mean, what can you say? Jerusalem
But I am going to go and finish up the rest of my vacation...this is why all the posts this week, b/c for once I had time to discuss the things I love. One last note, let there not be any contention or fighting, its pointless. Does the hand say to the nose, "I don't like you". Or does the knee tell the foot, "what do you think your doing"? So then does the body of Christ argue amongst itself? If someone writes something that is contrary to your opinion, then so what. It will be impossible for everyone to be on the same page all the time. Till next time...
by the way, the timeline is very crude, but included it so you can see everything happens within 2008-15. And of course, its just my opinion.