Reply to Pablo and Robert Gray about their posts.
Jan 25, 2011 Discussion about eschatology timing and interpretation
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Pablo has posted a very good article in www.fivedoves.com in it he gives his view on a very possible interpretation of the seals of Revelation and the Rapture of the church. I know that the timing of this event and the start of the Tribulations is a very contested point among those debating eschatology interpretation but his position and interpretation is a possibility.
As he implies the seals are open in heaven by Jesus and the resulting events on earth are not that easy to discern. From my point of view there is only one troubling fact that could prevent this interpretation to be valid and that is the appearance of the two witnesses of Chapter 11 in Revelation. In this chapter the narrative seems to indicate that their testimony of 1,260 days starts on the first day of the seven years. This is implied because a little further on Israel will be protected in the desert for another 1,260 days. If these two periods have overlapping times then it is possible to see the first seal occurring with the Church on the earth. I can not see the first four seals happening and killing one fourth of the people on the earth and the church going through it and not calling this the wrath of God.
Allowing for the assumption that the two periods of 1,260 days overlap then I can see that the election of Barack Hussein Obama on Nov 4, 2008 could be construed to refer to the opening of the first seal in heaven.
We have not seen 1,600 million people dead so the 2,3 and fourth seal can not have been opened yet although they may be opened in succession within hours or days one after the other.
I remain puzzled and asking myself what peace of this complex tapestry of events are we missing or not seeing, and as Robert Gray posted in here today also we are like children working in a very difficult puzzle with the supervision of a loving Father looking over our shoulders.
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Pablo (25 Jan 2011)
“A testimony of dreams and visions and my 2 cents (it’s coming soon!)“
Dear John and Doves,
My name is Pablo, I am a faithful reader of five doves and have been for the past 3 years, I have followed every article and post that everyone contributes to the page and I must say it has been of great edification to my spirit.. I also believe that the lord is coming very soon and have been watching for His return.
I would like to share some experiences from my studies and from those close to me who follow the Lord Jesus with all their hearts, I have received so much encouragement and knowledge from the doves and I feel now is the moment to give something back.
I understand that many of you have your scatological point of view (not sure if that’s the way to spell it… my native language is Spanish so please forgive my spelling =)), I understand that all of us are avid watchers and are looking for every sign of Jesus’ return and its very edifying to see all these different points of views of how it will all unfold (or is unfolding…) according to the very Word of God.
My father is an evangelical pastor and has been for the past 35+ years. He converted to christianism on a very peculiar way, you can say “a supernatural way”, my father was a Doctor, he studied medicine and specialized in nuclear medicine, as you can see this was the reason why he always thought he knew all the answers to life, but God had the final answer, right before he gave his life to Jesus he had 2 very peculiar dreams, one night he had this terrible nightmare where he was in the middle of the ocean and there was this horrible storm and he was looking for refuge and found this little floating refuge or island that looked like a castle, he says he entered it and there was a lot of people refuged in there but when they saw his clothes weren’t shiny and clean like everyone else’s they threw him back into the ocean and also threw a framed picture portrait of him, he says that he clinged to the portrait and upon looking at it, he saw the portrait of him turn into this evil being and started choking him, as soon as this happened he woke up from his dream sweating and very disturbed.
The next night he had another dream, he dreamt that he was in Mexico city and that there was this huge earthquake and everyone was running back and forth not knowing where to go, all of the sudden he overheard some people saying “the Hashmayin are here!” and he saw these huge beings humanly lookin beings but very tall flying down to the city and putting people under their capes and vanishing towards heaven, he immediately ran towards one of these beings in the middle of the great earthquake and saw this being cover him under his wings and immediately he elevated like in an instant out of the city and into the heavens, after this he found himself in the heavens and the floor was this glass so transparent that he could look down into the earth and see the destruction taking place due to this huge earthquake, apparently this earthquake was world wide, while he was in this place of refuge he saw a lot of people there too, you could say a great multitude that no one could count of every tribe, nation and tongue, he seemed to feel like he didn’t deserve to be there, he says everyone else knew exactly where they were and what was happening except him, he says that there was this great hall and there he heard a voice saying “kneel to the Lord of all!” immediately everyone started kneeling and when he saw this he did the same but curiously wanting to see who this “Lord” was, he says he started looking up while kneeling to see who the “Lord” was and immediately he saw the roof opened and this great being with lots and lots of light started descending to this place but he could not see His face because it was so bright, and just as the Lord was about to show his face, my dad woke up looking towards his bedroom window at the sun reflecting straight towards his face in the morning.
He immediately wanted to know what this dream was all about, so he went and visited the pastor of a local Christian church my mom was attending to, the pastor told him “this dream is definitely supernatural and it’s very similar to biblical prophecy of the end times”. The thing that got my dad mostly curious was these “Hashmayin” beings he heard named in his dream and started doing research on the name, eventually he stumbled with Jewish angelical info that pointed to the name “Hashmayin” and realized that this was a name given to one of the angelical hierarchy of Jewish tradition and after that my father decided to give his life to Christ.
This goes to show you how great our God is!, it wasn’t biblical reasoning that convinced my dad of Jesus, it was simply the prayer of my mom and the power of the Lord that broke all the pride and knowledge barriers my dad had along with his preconceived ideas.
Anyways, I too had a terrible experience right before deciding to surrender myself to the Lord and start living for Him. I had a terrible dream of the rapture, I say “terrible” because it implicated me being on the wrong side of this event, I was left behind in this dream and it was so awful that I decided to do a final 180degree turn and follow Jesus, the fear of the Lord was truly instilled in me after this dream.
After that I really got into studying the book of revelations and found this interesting relation to my dads dream, my dreams/visions and the prophetic insights of all the people I know from my church and other places of the world, that I have come to know through five doves and other blogs I normally visit. I myself run a blog page in Spanish that the Lord led me to because of the lateness of the hour and how necessary it is to wake his bride up. In it, I share what the Latin Christian community sends me of what the Holy Spirit tells those with the gift of prophecy, dreams and visions.
My mom was baptized by the Holy Spirit before she was even baptized in water, and ever since the Lord has used her in the gift of prophecy, things that she has prophesized to our local church have come to pass and others we have seen come to pass in this last year (2010) one of the many things she prophesized was in 2006 (or 2007… if memory serves me right…) she said the Lord told her that there was going to come a huge change in the white house, that she saw a way different president to what the norm was, and 3 years later Obama was the newly elected president, the Lord also told her of all the things that would start happening with the sun, the ocean and the animals, well the Lord has been telling her that the rapture is very near, she says the Lord told her that when a great war starts that in that moment we will be parting to meet our Lord in the clouds, but the Lord also told her that there would be a world wide earthquake right before the moment of our departure. Of course this led me to study revelations because everything a prophet says has to be backed up and confirmed by scripture.
It is my personal belief that the rapture happens when the sixth seal is opened in heaven, why? Because from what many prophets are saying, the first 3 seals might already be open or are being opened and if that is the case, then the events of the seal openings are done in heaven and only the spiritually awake and watchful are aware of this, and the events happening in this very moment on earth are a reflection of these seals, as time passes by it should be more and more evident for us that are watching. A sister in Christ had a dream and she saw a black horse descending from heaven, a brother from my Tuesdays bible study told me he dreamt a red horse walking on the earth, brother Owuor says he saw the black horse also come forth, Acts 2:17 is happening more now than ever before, it is all coming together.
I don’t believe this is a matter of pre, mid or post trib, I believe it’s a matter of pre-wrath, God has not appointed us to wrath, I humbly believe it doesn’t say “God has not appointed us to tribulation” if it would, then the whole Word of God would be invalid. Isn’t our God just amazing!? . Because ever since Jesus ascended there has been tribulation for mankind and that doesn’t exempt the Christians.
Let’s analyze what I’m saying here:
While studying the 7 seals of the book of Revelation, I found something extremely revealing (in my humble opinion) I’ve often doubted where the rapture of the church is in Revelation (there are many studies by various authors of this) but none seemed entirely convincing, I reached the point where I have met a very convincing one while studying my Bible. For those of you, who are familiar with the seals, clearly know that the first four seals are the riders, starting with white, red, black and ending with yellow.
According to several testimonies of brothers and ministers in Christ and the Holy Spirit’s revelations of prophetic words, dreams and visions, many have seen and believe that the riders are walking the earth at this moment and will just be more and more evident as time passes by and we get close to our departure.
I’ll try to summarize it for not taking up much more space. If we are right to think that riders are already walking the earth, this implies that the four seals have been opened, now what corroborates this? Good question! Let me give you my humble opinion, we have the white horse (Revelation 6) which a man mounts with a crown and a bow and goes forth conquering and to conquer, this horse is said to represent the world leader we know as the antichrist, which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 and Daniel in Daniel 9-12. Many believe that this man has already a place in the world scenario but is yet to reveal himself, I will reserve to give the name for security reasons, but perhaps many of you understand who I mean.
Then we see the red horse, this horse takes peace away from Earth, which could mean war or violence or both…, the Lord Jesus told us that a sign of the times would be wars and rumors of wars (Matthew 24), Paul talks about sudden destruction (war? Super earthquake?), Ezekiel 38 and 39 speaks of a war against Israel from Gog and Magog (Russia, Iran, etc …), Isaiah 17 tells of the destruction of Damascus (Syria), all this leads us to see the current situation and think: “we are very close!”, which can make much sense and it’s logical to think that the red horse is walking on the Earth right now and about to start a third world war, which could culminate in nuclear destruction, remember the last world war and what happened to the country that had nuclear capabilities? Exactly! The US used it! They used nuclear bombs. Then we can imagine today having all these countries with atomic bombs and what could happen, we are literally talking about sudden destruction and death on a large scale.
Then we have the black horse, this tells us about the hunger and the reason for the hunger is that balance scale on this riders’ hands, this could mean devastating inflation of the currency because of the economic crisis and recurrent droughts happening around the world because of climate change (the earth groaning for redemption), as you can see, this is a chain reaction that is already manifesting in this world, which brings us to confirm “the black horse could potentially be riding” and only getting worse by the days.
Now we have the yellow horse, which brings death and Hades followed closely. Death is spreading around the world on a large scale and it only goes from bad to worse with the amount of economic events (hunger and scarcity), religious (terrorism, genocide, persecution of Christians and Jews), political (wars, oppressed societies, violence, civil unrest) and nature (natural disasters) in the world today. And it will manifest precisely more and more while the previous 3 horses ride. This pale horse will be taking more and more power and its power will be over a quarter of the population of Earth.
This leads to the fifth seal which is very interesting! And here’s the core of what I want to show you. Opened the fifth seal and are the souls of those who had died because of the word of God and the testimony they had (i.e. the dead in Christ) but beware! These are the souls and not the bodies!, and they are asking the Lord, when are you going to try and take revenge on those who dwell on earth? So they are asking God, when will you shed your “Wrath” (the hour of trial – Rev. 3:10) on Earth? And they were given a white robe and told to wait until it completes the number of those brothers who were being killed as they have been and are today. Today Christians are still being killed, this is very common in African and Middle Eastern nations and not too rare in Latin American nations. Let us pray for strength for those brothers and sisters in Christ who are going through tribulation in these countries that are persecutors of the gospel.
We have the sixth seal, and it behold a “great earthquake.” The sun turns black (perhaps the result of the earthquakes destruction and pollution generated? Or maybe an actual eclipse) And the moon turns to blood (perhaps also the result of air pollution by the earthquake? War? Or maybe an actual blood moon?) Which leads me to believe that this is worldwide, the stars are falling from the sky (I really don’t have a clear and logical explanation for this … maybe meteorites? this does not change the fact that it’s going to happen) and then we see that every mountain and island was removed from its PLACE (this will be because of a global earthquake). After that, something jumped in my face (so to speak) when I read it, it says in verse 17 of Revelation chp.. 6 “For the great day of His wrath has come and who can stand?” The big day has arrived! This is the beginning of the great terrible day of the Lord (worldwide tribulation – Read Zephaniah) and did not start in the previous 5 seals! Glory to Christ through His blessed Holy Spirit reveals all things! It also asks the question: “Who can stand?” Oh! Do we know who can stand!
Here is the answer in Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things to come, and to STAND before the Son of Man.”
Remember, although we are living during the 5 seals the Lord Jesus gives us a wonderful promise in John 16:33 “These things I have spoken to that in me ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” Even in these difficult times we are living we have not been lacking food or water, or a roof over our heads, because our Lord is with us! Glory to Jesus Christ our precious and dear Savior! He has conquered! Praise Him brothers he is not made of wood! (A little humor for those of you who are a bit too serious…)
Now let’s continue talking about the day of the Wrath of God that happens once the sixth seal is opened because here comes the most important part.
After the Earth at the time of global earthquake and the signals from the sun, moon and stars and the proclamation of the people on earth saying that the day of wrath has come, we see a break, so we see in chapter 7 of Revelations it starts talking about the 144 thousand Jews that are sealed! This is during the sixth seal!
Later we see in verse 9 of Revelation 7 John sees “a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language.” Could it be? The rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ happened! And they are all dressed in white robes! Palms in their hands (an allusion to the booths or tabernacles feast Lev. 23). Let us pause here, what just happened? OK we’re still in the sixth seal and the worldwide earthquake happened, His wrath started and the multitude of believers are in heaven before the throne of God because they were caught up.
This leads me to dig a little more on this whole earthquake deal, remember when Jesus was resurrected? There was an earthquake! And not only did Jesus rise from the dead but also many other saints that slept arose at that time! Let’s see what the Word of God says about this:
Matthew 27:50-53 “And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. The veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened and many bodies of saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his (Jesus) resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
OK! We realize that there was a great earthquake, Jesus raises, receives his glorified body and the saints rose (certainly not any saints that died after Christ but most likely that died before Christ) being brought in and out of their graves too! All this during or after a major earthquake, can you see the resemblance that this has with the sixth seal of Revelations?
Now we see more, the apostle Paul tells us something very interesting in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” We know that the sixth seal begins the Wrath of God and now Paul reassures us that God has not appointed us for Wrath but for Salvation through Jesus.
Let’s see what this great crowd in the heavens is saying after the dead in Christ rise, and are together with the living that were taken away to stand before the Son of Man Jesus of Nazareth in verse 10 of Revelation 7 “They cried with a loud voice, saying, SALVATION to our God, who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb.” They cried: “salvation”, that is, God has not appointed us to wrath but to “salvation” Glory to the Father, the Son and the blessed Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth! Can you see it? I think this is the rapture! (in my humble and honest opinion of course…)
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 “For this we say unto you the word of the Lord, that we which are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God shall descend from heaven and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive, who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. “
Now, maybe you can get a bit confused by what it says after (in Rev. 7:13-15) when John asks the elder “who are these people in white robes and whence came they?” The elder replied “These are the ones who came out of great tribulation…” Look closely, he says came out of it, that doesn’t necessarily mean that we went through it, it could also mean we came out of it right before it started, it also says “great tribulation” and not “THE great tribulation” ask those people in Haiti if what they went through is great tribulation during and after that earthquake, or ask those Christians in African or middle eastern countries if what they’re going through is somewhat a great tribulation and see what they’ll answer… (you can say we went through that door that Jesus opens for the Philadelphia like church in Revelation. 3:8-10, the same door you see John go through in Revelations 4:1 at the time of being caught up), the rapture has to be right before the wrath of God starts – the great and terrible day of the Lord.
Praise God for His wisdom through His Holy Spirit and His Word that never fails to show us great and mighty things, as Jeremiah 33:3 says.
It is not my intention to attack any other prophetic interpretation of the book of Revelations or any other points of view with this letter, I fully respect every point of view and pretty much wait anxiously in anticipation on how this whole thing pans-out. I love Jesus and just like everyone else here, I await His glorious appearing.
Brothers and sisters! we are on red alert for the rapture! Let’s have all our spiritual bags ready because soon we will depart. Amen..
God Bless, In Christ’s love,
The dove in the desert.
The following article is related to the above in a very significant way.
Robert Gray (25 Jan 2011)
“Keep working the puzzle!!“
The Father sat in a great big chair, in a great big room. On the floor at his feet were all His children playing different games. Over to His left were children playing with different toys. Over to His right were children playing with board games. Some were just standing and watching the others. In the center of the room was a very large puzzle. It was right at His feet. Many children were working diligently on it. On the side of the puzzle was a very large book. It was laid open and a large picture was showing in the middle of the book.
The Father looked lovingly around the room. He loved each one so much. His attention was drawn to the big puzzle and the children who were working so feverishly to get it completed. They would take a piece of the puzzle over to the big book and compare it to the picture in the book. When they thought they figured out where it fit in the puzzle, they took it over to the puzzle and slipped the piece into place. There was rejoicing every time a new piece went into place.
Sometimes they would take a piece that they thought was an edge piece, it looked like an edge piece, and try to make it fit, but alas they discovered it actually fit right into the middle of the puzzle.
Sometimes one of the children would put a piece into the wrong place. It would fit ok, but it just didn’t look right. Soon other pieces didn’t fit either. Another child would come along and remove that piece, and find a place for it on the other side other puzzle, and it fit perfectly. Suddenly, three or four pieces would fit perfectly into place. The children would begin to sing and dance around the room in joy.
Sometimes some of the children who had worked so hard, would get very tired, and fall asleep, right on the puzzle! The Father would lovingly pick them up in His big arms and hold them close. The motion of this act would gently wake them up and they would open their eyes and look into the loving eyes of their Father. Excited they would sit on His lap and watch the other children in the room, especially the ones working the puzzle..
As the children worked each piece into the puzzle, a picture began to emerge. It started to look just like the one in the book. They could see the scene of a house and barn. There were people’s faces and animals all in the picture. They got excited and began to sing and dance again. The other children just looked at them and thought that they were very peculiar children indeed!
There were other children who were not in the room. They were outside and often looked in the windows. They would laugh at the children in the room, especially the one who chose to work the puzzle. They would even yell and mock those who were so diligent. It hurt their feelings, and sometimes they would even cry. But soon some of the children, who were comrades in the puzzle project, would put their arms around them and comfort them. As soon as another piece was discovered, they forgot the taunting and rejoiced with the others.
Some of the children would get frustrated and begin to quarrel. They would argue that certain pieces went in certain places. They even argued about when the puzzle would be finished. Some said it would be done before the end of the day. Others said that there was no way it would be done so soon, it would take many days. Then there were those who just said to not worry when it will be finished, but to just enjoy the puzzle. Some just got tired of the puzzle and gave up and went to play with other toys.
Sometimes a piece would seem to be missing. They could not find it anywhere. But after diligent searching, they found it under the rug. When they finally put it into place many other pieces fit as well.
As the father watched His dear children, He looked on with joy and pride. He saw every child. He saw all the pieces of the puzzle, and He knew where each and every piece went. So at a time when none of the pieces seemed to fit anywhere, He would nudge a piece of the puzzle over close to where it belonged. The children would see that, and put it into the right place, soon three or four more pieces slipped
easily into place.
The puzzle was almost done. All the people were filled in, the dogs the barn, the house, the animals, even some of the trees. What was not finished was the sky. That big blue sky was so difficult, so many sky pieces. All the sky pieces were the same color. There was just not enough information on any of those pieces, so they left the sky, and some of the trees for last.
Finally at as the sun was hanging low on the horizon, the Father stood and called all of His children to supper. They all dropped their toys and came running into the Fathers arms. As they were leaving the room, the Father felt a tug at His hand. Looking down He saw one of His dear children looking up at Him. “Father, what about the puzzle?”
“We haven’t finished the puzzle” The Father looked down in love and
said,” my dear little one, Leave the puzzle. Let the others finish it. As for you my child, it’s time for supper, come on home”