Marilyn
Youre writing is in Blue Italics. Thank you for the response.
:-)
I Thess.
4:16 is about the FIRST TRUMP, THE FIRST RAPTURE, THE PRE-TRIB
RAPTURE.
I Thess 4:16 isnt
talking about the Pre - Trib rapture. It cant be
a pretrib rapture because Notice in verse 15 where it
says this takes place at The Coming of the Lord.
This is clearly in reference to the 2nd coming.
1 THESS 4:15 For this we say unto you
by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto ------
the coming of the Lord ----- shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Further - more in Verse 16 it
says that at the Coming of The Lord, The Lord will
descend from Heaven.
1 THESS 4:16 because the Lord himself,
in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God,
shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
Match this with Acts
1:11 where he is taken up ( Ascends) into Heaven, and comes back
in like manner (descends)
Acts
1: 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld,
he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts
1:10 And while they looked stedfastly
toward heaven as he went up, behold,
two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts
1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into
heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken
up from you into heaven, shall so come
in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I
Cor. 15:51-54 tells us about the LAST TRUMP, THE SECOND RAPTURE, THE PRE-WRATH
RAPTURE. It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL
(including Paul) be CHANGED (ACTUALLY BE MADE IMMORTAL), In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (i.e., all saints, the
entire Body of Christ in Heaven) shall be CHANGED.
I strongly feel
that the verses from 1 Cor 15: 51 - 54, go hand in hand with
1 Thess 4:15 - 17 (Meaning they are the same).
The dead are resurrected together with the living. These verses
together are speaking of the same resurrection.
This resurrection is
only possible through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the resurrection.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us
the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The living who witness and
see the return of Jesus Christ will rise with the Dead believer at his
return. The dead believer includes New Testament
and Old Testament believer alike. See below red mine
Hebrews 11 :39 - 40 And these all (Old
testament believers) , having obtained a good report
through faith, received not the promise: ( The
Resurrection in Jesus Christ who is the promise)
God having provided some better thing for us ( The resurrection, Jesus), that they
(Old Testament believers) without us ( New Testament believers) should
not be made perfect (Glorified Bodies).
This is only possible at the
resurrection. Where according to I Thess 4 and I Cor 15 the dead
and living are resurrected together.
2nd
Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according
to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
24 Elders
He (Paul) isn't resurrected at the 2nd Coming.
He is resurrected at the Pre-Trib Rapture. He is one of the 24 elders seen
in Heaven right after the Rapture (Rev. 4:1-4).
Im not too sure if the 24 Elders apply to only just the New
testment believer. See this commentary where it states that the 24
elders apply also to the Old Testament beliver as well.
F & B COMMENTARY
four and twenty elders--Greek,
"the four and twenty (or as one oldest manuscript, 'twenty-four') elders":
the well-known elders [ALFORD]. But TREGELLES translates, "Upon the twenty-four
thrones (I saw: omitted in two oldest manuscripts) elders sitting":
which is more probable, as the twenty-four elders were not mentioned
before, whereas the twenty-four thrones were. They
are not angels, for they have white robes and crowns of victory,
implying a conflict and endurance, "Thou hast redeemed us":
they represent the Heads of the Old and New Testament
churches respectively, the Twelve Patriarchs (compare Rev 7:5-8 ,
not in their personal, but in their representative character), and Twelve
Apostles. So in Rev 15:3 , "the song of Moses, and of the Lamb," the double
constituents of the Church are implied, the Old Testament and the New Testament.
"Elders" is the very term for the ministry both of the Old and New
Testament, the Jewish and the catholic Gentile Church. The tabernacle
was a "pattern" of the heavenly antitype; the holy place, a figure of HEAVEN
ITSELF. Thus Jehovah's throne is represented by the mercy seat in the holiest,
the Shekinah-cloud over it. "The seven lamps of fire before the throne" (
Rev 4:5 )
are antitypical to the seven-branched candlestick also in the holiest, emblem
of the manifold Spirit of God: "the sea of glass" ( Rev 4:6 )
corresponds to the molten sea before the sanctuary, wherein the priests washed
themselves before entering on their holy service; so introduced here in connection
with the redeemed "priests unto God" (compare Note, see on JF &
B for Re 15:2). The "four living creatures" ( Rev 4:6, 7 )
answer to the cherubim over the mercy seat. So the twenty-four throned and
crowned elders are typified by the twenty-four chiefs of the twenty-four courses
of priests, "Governors of the sanctuary, and governors of God" ( 1Ch 24:5 25:1-31 ).
RIGHTEOUS CROWN
Now if you notice 2nd Timothy
4:1 , 4:8 --- also---- goe with 1 Thess 4, and 1 Corin 15.
The dead and living are resurrected
together, if in the text it says Jesus appearing and kingdom then surely this
applies to the resurrection when the Lord descends
from Heaven as in I Thess 4. Then these verses goe hand
in hand. Also 1st Thess 4 and 2nd Timothy 4 were both from Paul.
2nd Timothy 4:1
I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who
will judge the living and the
dead ------- at his appearing and his kingdom;
( The Appearing here is associated with the setting
up of the millenial kingdom of Christ so this is clearly the appearing
of Christ at His 2nd coming.)
4: 8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord,
the righteous judge, shall give me at that day ( The
Day of Jesus Appearing / And Kingdom) :
and not to me only ( Paul
will be dead at the day of the 2nd coming) , but
unto all them also that love his appearing ( The living that witness it on the day it happens).
Paul receives his crown of righteousness
at the coming of Christ, With the living believer that witness it.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still:
and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy
still. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me,
to give every man according as his work shall
be. ---------- 22: 14 Blessed [are] they that do
his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter
in through the gates into the city.
Not only Paul receives this
crown on this Day but Daniel receives this crown as well.
Daniel 12: 13
But go thou thy way ( Daniel ) till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and
stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
On the
Day of the Lord, THAT DAY of the General Assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23),
the Pre-Trib saints are gathered to the General Assembly from one end of
Heaven to the other. Mt. 24:31 says, "he shall send his angels with a great
sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four
winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."
At the
same time, the Pre-Wrath saints are gathered from the Earth. Mark 13:27
says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (at the
Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those caught up previously
at the Pre-Trib Rapture). Im not so sure
about this one. When it says from the uttermost part of the
EARTH , to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" I think its just implying
when
Jesus delivers up the kingdom to God, even the Father. And it
speaks of those here on earth in general dead or living, and not pre
trib, pre wrath senario as you state.
ILL GIVE REASONING AND VERSES WHY I
BELIEVE THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IS THE 2ND COMING
Jesus will APPEAR on the same day that he receives his KINGDOM. THAT
DAY is 7 months BEFORE the Second Advent. Eze. 38:18-20 describes the
Day of God's Wrath. Then Eze. 39:12,13 says, "SEVEN MONTHS shall the
house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all
the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the
day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent), saith the Lord
GOD."
The 2nd Advent is the 2nd coming::::
the reappearance of Jesus as
judge for the Last Judgment.
His appearing then is when he returns to set up his kingdom.
How can he Appear to set up his kingdom, then return 7 months later ???
2nd
Thess 1: 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven
with his mighty angels, --------------1:10 When he shall
come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired
in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was
believed) in that day.
When Jesus is revealed from
Heaven and glorified in his saints, this is in reference to the everlasting kingdom.
He returns to set up his kingdom
Daniel 7:13,
14 saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and
came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. -----
And there was given him dominion, and glory,
and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him:
his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and
his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and
dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,
whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and
obey him.
-------------------------------
Eze 38:23 says of THAT DAY, "Thus will I magnify myself, and
sanctify myself; and I WILL BE KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY
NATIONS (i.e., the Sign of the
Son of Man will be seen), and
they shall know that I am the LORD."
Ezekiel 38:23 is talking about the 2nd Coming. HE
RETURNS AND ALL EYES SHALL SEE HIM. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced
him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because
of him. Even so, Amen.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the
clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So the Lord Jesus returns and this is the sign
in the sky.
THAT DAY is the greatest day
ever. Isa 2:11 says, "The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of
men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in THAT DAY."
Isa 17:7
says, "At THAT DAY shall a man look to his Maker,
and his EYES shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel."
GOD BLESS IN CHRIST JESUS
T.J.