Greg Wilson (26 Feb 2017)
"Re:  Revelation 12:5 Steven B. and Dan Matson"


Greg Wilson (20 Feb 2017)

Re:  Revelation 12:5 Steven B. and Dan Matson


I would like to join in on the conversation about Revelation 12:5. Dan Matson has recently studied and formulated an opinion on this verse.  Steven B. has joined Dan in his recently expressed view.


What is this view ?  It is a view that Revelation 12:5b "her child" may represent the Church raptured.


The first five verses of Revelation 12:5 KJB state:

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: [b] and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

[Letter (b)Added]

I believe that it is important to search and study the Scriptures of truth as God reveals in the Bible, for me the KJB. 

We are commanded to prove all things in the context of prophecy. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)  We, who labor in the word and doctrine, (1 Thessalonians 5:17) need to consider the doctrine in which the word's of God are located.  This is the doctrinal context.   There is a doctrine for the Jews in the Time of Jacobs Trouble.  If you apply Jewish doctrine to a Christian, you will produce heresy.

Doctrinally, the Book of Revelation is Jewish

The Book of Revelation is principally a Jewish revelation.  Revelation 1:1 says that Jesus gave the revelation to show his "servants".   The Jew is the servant of Jesus.   Paul, while using this term from time to time, principally refers to "Christ's own" as sons, not servants.  The term "servant" begins to flavor the revelation with Jewish terms.  In verse 13, John refers to Jesus as the "Son of Man".  This is another Jewish term given to Israel's Messiah.  Paul's epistles never refer to Jesus by this Jewish title. He is the Son of God.  While the first three chapters of Revelation use the term "churches" they are, most probably Jewish assemblies from a doctrinal view.  Surely, from an inspirational view, we may characterize them as Christian churches throughout the ages.  But doctrinally, the seven assemblies  are  linguistically flavored with Jewish terms suggesting the differing factions of Judaism struggling to find the "faith and testimony of Jesus" during the Tribulation period. (Revelation 12:17, 14:12). 

Each of these revelations about the assemblies contain clues to their Jewishness.   For example: Revelation 2:8 someone will eat from the tree of life.  Not Christians because we have Jesus and eternal life in Him, not a tree. Revelation 2:9 refers to Jews in the Church of Smyna.  In Revelation 2:10 someone gets "a crown of life".  No Christian who gets saved is promised a "crown of life".  The verse says "if someone is faithful unto death" they will earn this crown.  Our eternal life is in Jesus, based on His faith. 

This speaks to the Jewish tribulation salvation doctrine.  The examples continue.  My point is that the Book of Revelation is doctrinally written to Jews with a view that they (1) keep the commandments of God, (2) have the faith and testimony of Jesus, (3) endure unto the end, and (4) do not take the mark of the beast.  This is the doctrine of Tribulation salvation.  There are no Christians in this period.

Back to Revelation 12.  I am of the opinion that the Book of Revelation expresses four views of the Tribulation,  just as the four gospels give four views of the life of Jesus.   Revelation 12 commences one of those views.  It is a beginning.  So the sign appearing on September 23, 2017 is most probably a Genesis 1:14 appointed time sign.   When the Tribulation begins, there will be no true Christians on Earth.   Christ's own will have departed.  Christ's own are members of the body of the JUDGE.  The JUDGE is not going to judge his own body.  All of God's judgment has been committed to Jesus. (John 5:22)  Christ's own, upon receiving Jesus in their heart's, had their sins forgiven by Jesus' atoning self-sacrifice.   There is no partial forgiveness.  For all you who think Christians will miss the rapture because they have not attained a sufficient state of sanctification are in error not knowing the Scriptures.   A  person is either saved or not.  Jesus did it all.  (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"   This is a sign in the heavens.  It is to be understood literally as constellation sign heavens which represents Israel, the 12 tribes of Jacob.  It is a Jewish sign.  The Tribulation is about saving remnant Israel, period!  It is Jacob's week.  Jacob is Jewish and a member of the prophet Daniel's people.  We are in Jewish doctrine now.  The sign most probably announces a dispensation change following the termination of the Age of Pentecost, which ended with the Pentecostal rapture of the true Church some months earlier, mid-May-June 2017, however God measures the time.

Revelation 12:2: "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."    At first reading, this appears as an historical statement about the birth of Messiah, in or about 4 B.C.  But, it may also have an application to the birth of a believing Jewish remnant, the Israel that God desires.  They will keep God's commandments and have the faith and testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 12:3-4: I am omitting these two verses from the scope of the conversation as I am focused on the "man child" and Christian rapture view of verse 5.

Revelation 12:5: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."   She is the woman of the sign.  She is Israel.  She birthed "a man child".   This man child is the Jewish Messiah Jesus who was prophesized in Genesis 3:15.    God is going to finish the job he promised in Genesis.  Jesus will rule the nations.  This fact is confirmed in Revelation 2:27, 19:15; Psalm 2:9.

Revelation 12:5b says that "her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne".  In the context of the forgoing the "birthed child", the "man child" and "her child" all refer to the Jewish Messiah Jesus.

God is not limited by time. Israel is God's time piece.  So, to see a verse about the historic birth of the Jewish Messiah should not throw us off our Jewish doctrinal course.   This gap period, which has been about 1987 years, is a mystery.  It does not account for but two days to God. (Psalm 90:4)  God keeps "covenant time" for Israel.  (See:

The language of Isaiah 66:7-9 and Micah 5:3 is curiously similar to Revelation 12:2 and 5.  Let's look at these similar verses.  Can they illuminate Revelation 12?  What is this travail and birthing?  I will tell you what Revelation 12:1-5 is speaking to.  It is the birth of the believing Jewish remnant.  This will be the true Israel which the Father seeks.  Isaiah says that "the remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God." (Isaiah 10:21) Paul says that "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel". (Romans 9:6)  Israel, with the testimony of Jesus, is God's true Israel.

The Travail, the birthing of a "man child" May be a "Type" of Remnant Israel

The woman above, Israel, has been a barren woman.  She, as a nation, has not produced any children.  Remember when Jesus smote the barren fig tree. (Mark 11:13) The fig tree represents "self righteous Israel".  It had produced no fruit. It was not its time.   The Psalmist sees this dilemma, but knows that she will produce children.(Psalm 113:9)  This is believing Israel which must be "born  again" in BELIEF, rather than unbelief. (Psalm 22:31, 80:17-19; Isaiah 54:1)  This is what Jesus told Nicodemus.(John 3:3)

Isaiah 66:7-9 states:

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

The Tribulation is Principally about Jewish National Salvation

Israel is going to suffer in the Tribulation.  God is going to severely afflict Israel. (Hosea 5:15)  True Israel will seek the God of their fathers.  God has chosen remnant Israel in the furnace of His affliction. (Isaiah 48:10)  This furnace of affliction is the "birthing pain".  Her children are those of Revelation 12:17 and 14:12.  These are the remnant.  The term "a man child" may represent Jacob, the believing man type who has the testimony of Jesus.

When Israel was born of a nation in a day, Hebrew Year 5707 (1947/48) she was physically born, but spiritually dead.  This is the "nation born at once" in verse 8.  The time of Jacob's trouble is the travail.  It is Daniel's 70th week.   It will be the time where the remnant of Jacob will come to the faith and testimony of Jesus.  That is the from death.  Paul proclaims this truth in Romans 11:15 where he says these words.   These children with the faith and testimony of Jesus are the ones whom Satan will persecute in great tribulation.

Micah 5:3 states:

Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

The prophet Micah, says that God will give them up until the time that the woman (of Revelation 12) travails.  This will happen during Daniel's 70th week, the time of Jacob's trouble, the tribulation.  The travail will be the furnace of affliction, the cup of God's wrath and indignation.

These times are just in front of us.  Today is the day of salvation.  If you hear God calling your heart, do not harden, but yield and receive Him. (Isaiah 49:8; 2 Corinthians 6:2, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:9-10)

Christ's own will have departed prior to this Jewish sign in the heavens.  Our departure is a Pentecostal event.  Paul clearly teaches this truth in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.   We received the "earnest deposit" against the final payment, the "redemption of the body".  God's final installment, just like the deposit, will be delivered on Pentecost too.  Pentecost is a day in eternity.