John B (2 Feb 2012)
"Re: Michael Plunket, Donna Danna.............Satan cannot be either beasts of Revelation 13.....can he?   Mathman and numbers people....can you figure the odds?"


Mike,        http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2012/mikep131.htm
 
The question you asked is an excellent one. What part does Satan play in Rev.13 with the other two beasts? I will explain to you what I believe for whatever that's worth. By the way, I agree with the majority of your post except for the identity of the angel that is sent by God with the key to open the bottomless pit. I believe this is one of God's angels and not Satan himself. God has the key to the earthly prison where these fallen angels and demons reside and I believe He sends one of His angels with the key to open it.
 
Satan has tried to copy and corrupt everything the true God has put in place. The bible says and we believe in a triune God or the Trinity.....Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. Satan has copied and corrupted this by forming his own evil trinity which consists of.................
 
-----Satan, the dragon, Lucifer
 
-----The first beast in Rev. 13, Apollyon, Abandon, Apollo, ruler of the bottomless pit, the spirit of this demon to indwell the image of a king who died but will appear to rise again to be the eighth king of the same kingdom, the one we call the antichrist
 
-----The second beast in Rev.13, the false prophet  (more on him in a later post)
 
 
And whereas it is difficult for us to understand the workings and interaction of the blessed trinity....the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it is also difficult to understand what happens with the demonic trinity in Rev. 13.
 
It appears that the first beast we call the antichrist is a spirit being from the bottomless pit who takes on the image of a fallen king but the real power of this first beast is derived from Satan himself who also appears to indwell the first beast. We can gather this by what the scripture says in Rev.13:4.....So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast (first beast); and they worshiped the beast.......My interpretation of that is that both the spirits of Satan and Abandon-Apollyon have indwelled this first beast from the sea or the bottomless pit. 
 
We have scripture to back this up as Donna Danna referenced Judas Iscariot being indwelled by Satan. Also other characters in the bible being indwelled by what the bible calls "legions" of evil spirits.  Multiple evil spirits or demons indwelling a single person. So certainly it would be no stretch saying that the spirits of Satan and Abandon indwelled the first beast or the antichrist at the same time.
 
The power to do vast miracles....make fire come down from the sky.....seems to be limited to Satan alone and not the other demonic spirit beings. Satan was created above all the other angels and appears to have unique powers that went with the authoritative position God gave him.
 
Notice from scripture that the first and second beast have no power if separated from Satan. Rev.13:2 states that Satan the dragon gave the first beast his power, throne, and great authority. Without Satan's indwelling the first beast has no power. Also note that in Rev.13:12 the second beast has no power unless he is in the presence of the first beast...... who is indwelled by Satan....where the power is.
 
So the bottom line is whenever the first or second beast display power it really comes from Satan himself.
 
And as you stated Mike at the end of the tribulation period the first and second beasts (the antichrist and the false prophet) are destroyed in the lake of fire but Satan is not. He is chained until the end of the millennium kingdom of 1000 years where he is released again to organize a revolt against the most high God.
 
And Donna you stated....."the first beast with the mortal deadly head wound that is healed in Rev. 13"......  http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2012/donnad21-1.htm
 
The bible never says that the first beast has a deadly head wound that was healed. This is a common falsehood that everyone seems to believe. Lets look at what the bible really says in Rev.13. It says that this first beast the antichrist has seven heads ...."And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed."
 
Now we know from what God tells us about this same beast in Rev.17 that the seven heads stand for seven kings. So then it's one of these seven kings that is wounded.  Lets plug that back into the same verse...."And I saw one of the seven kings as if he had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed." Notice also that God didn't say that this king was mortally wounded, He said as if he was mortally wounded.
 
Can we plug this information into what God tells us in Rev.17 about this same beast to help determine the identity of this beast?
 
God tells us through John in Rev. 17 that there are seven kings of a kingdom and one of these seven kings who has died will arise from the bottomless pit to be the eighth king (was, and is not, and yet is) and will also become the first beast or the antichrist. John was focused on one of these kings in the present tense when he had his vision. The king he was focused on was the sixth king.
 
Keep in mind some present day king of a kingdom of only seven kings will become the first beast or the antichrist. This is not speculation this is directly from God's word. Obama does not qualify!!!
 
So do we know any kingdoms that have formed in recent history that have had only seven kings, are awaiting the eighth king, and have had a king that was mortally wounded but survived?  Yes, The Vatican became it's own country in 1929 and has had seven popes who are the legal kings of The Vatican State. The present pope is the seventh and the next will be the eighth. The sixth pope or king was mortally wounded by being shot but his deadly wound was healed.
 
Which king or in this case pope was John focused on that the bible says will be wounded and survive? The sixth. John says in Rev.13 that this wounded head meaning king is the antichrist. He also tells us that the coming eighth king or pope will be the first beast or the antichrist coming up from the bottomless pit. He also tells us that this beast was alive, died and will appear to come alive again and he is one of the first seven kings or in this case popes.
 
God through John in Rev.17 tells us that this first beast is affiliated with a worldwide blasphemous organization which oversees peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues. ......The Roman Catholic Church.
 
John in Rev.17 tells us that the primary colors of this organization are scarlet and purple. These are the colors of the cardinals and bishops of the RCC.
 
John in Rev.17 tells us this organization deals with golden cups or chalices full of abominations. The golden chalices of the RCC are raised to heaven worldwide thousands of times daily on the RCC altars in the celebration of the Mass or the Eucharist . They through an un-bloody sacrifice atone for our sins by re-sacrificing Jesus daily.....as if Jesus didn't do it correctly on the cross. If that's not a cup full of abominations I don't know what is.
 
John in Rev.17 speaks of a woman and her affiliation with this beast and how this woman rides the beast .....or are a team. This woman has three different meanings and indeed forms a team with the beast. The woman represents a world wide organization or in this case church...the RCC. She also represents a false Mary (not the mother of God) that the RCC has given multiple blasphemous titles to. ..."And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy". And she also represents a city built on seven hills or seven mountains......Rome, the famous city built on seven hills.
 
John in Rev.17says this woman, this organization, is drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. That couldn't be true about the RCC....could it? The RCC in the Middle Ages murdered, put to death, burned at the stake, millions of Jews and true Christians that would not kneel to the authority of papal states and their blasphemous workings. It wasn't until Napoleon Bonaparte put an end to the power of the papal states that the slaughter ended.
 
John in Rev.18 described this organizations trappings like this......gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
 
Only a Catholic or x-Catholic like myself can appreciate the descriptions of these trappings as they apply to the RCC. 
 
The gold and silver, precious stones and pearls describe the ornate chalices made from gold and silver imbedded with gems and precious stones as also are their fancy ornate robes. 
 
Fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet describes the vestments (fancy clothing) worn by the priests, bishops and cardinals.
 
Every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of precious wood, bronze, iron and marble describes the interior and exterior of the RCC churches. Think about midnight Mass and the interior of St. Peters Basilica in Rome.
 
Cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense.....most people have witnessed the incense burners hung by chains used in the RCC celebrations that are filled with incense, cinnamon, fragrant oil and frankincense.
 
Wine and oil, fine flour and wheat.......every day the RCC takes wine and wafers made with fine flour and wheat and mumbo-jumbo--presto turns them literally into the body and blood of Christ (not) 
 
Cattle and sheep, horses and chariots....In John the Revelator's day an indication of the wealth of a person was determined by the number of cattle, sheep, horses and chariots one had. This is John's way of saying that this organization, the RCC, was very rich....and we know how true that is.
 
Taking in consideration all the above information and biblical facts......... I call on Mathman and all the other numbers people on Doves to estimate what the odds are that this first beast the antichrist is not a risen image of the sixth pope .....John Paul II.  A beast who will be indwelled by two demonic spirit beings Satan and Abandon /Apollyon. Who will completely mesmerize and dazzle the planet at his arrival. 
 
.......Rev.17:8 "And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."....Rev.13:3 .."And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast."
 
 
The world will be in terrible condition at the antichrist's arrival which I believe will be at the rapture. Millions of people will have just disappeared, the world economy will be in shambles (it already is), there will be wars and dissention all over the globe. The antichrist will speak great things and establish a seven year plan or agreement (covenant) to fix these problems. His great oratory skills along with his lying signs and wonders will convince the world to try his plan... his covenant. At some point he will OK the new Jewish temple and their daily sacrifices.
 
It will take this risen beast /image of a pope 42 months or 3.5 years to schmooze and pied piper the planet and completely orchestrate his global plan. This duo (Satan and Abandon) who makes up the antichrist will use 10 kings (Jesuits) who prior to this had no kingdom of their own but will be given one. They will break the world up into ten parts. It appears that when the second beast, the false prophet arrives on scene he will subdue 3 of the original 10 kings... Dan.7:24-25 and Dan.7:8...(I know this is contrary to the norm and I will explain this and many of the other terrible attributes of the false prophet in a soon post and also his identity)
 
Then, after the initial 42 months of schmoozing the planet and completely consolidating his power, the honeymoon will be over the mask will come off. The antichrist, this risen image of a former pope will expose the true demonic beast /beasts that he is. He will then declare himself to be the true God. Scripture says....He will blaspheme the real true God, blaspheme God's name, His tabernacle and those who dwell in heaven. He will make war and overcome the saints. Authority will be given to him over the whole world. All who dwell on earth will worship him except those whose names are written in the Book of the Lamb.
 
Now that he has declared himself to be God he will cancel all the sacrifices and offerings for Jews in their temple, the sacrifice and offering of bread and wine at the Mass for Catholics and any other religion that offers sacrifices and offerings to their gods. He will say that all these worldwide sacrifices and offerings will no longer be necessary because the god of all gods (himself) is now on earth headquartered in Rome and all this god worship will now be directed to him. Anyone who will not take his mark, worship him or his talking image will be put to death. And there will be thousands upon thousands of fallen angels, demons, aliens, creatures from the bottomless pit and evil earth people aligned with him to enforce those death penalties.
 
Along with his butchery and the simultaneous wrath of God in the great tribulation, precious few individuals will come out the other end of this almost seven year period. ......"if God had not shortened these days all flesh on earth would have perished."
 
Enough for today..........
Blessings.........John B
 
P.S.....Also take note and heed the warning God gives to Catholics in Rev.18:4.......And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her (the Roman Catholic Church) my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
 
This brings up a very scary point. As per scripture when we accept Jesus and His atonement for our sins on the cross we become born again and God says our sins are forgotten and remembered no more. Now contrast that with what God says about the Catholic Church and it's members in Rev.18:4. That if you do not  'come out of her'  or leave the Catholic Church that your sins will be remembered by God. To me that means you may not or will not be raptured and may very well loose your salvation.
 
That scenario makes for much anxiety and prayer when friends, relatives and loved ones are Catholic and we have the rapture of the church knocking on the door.
 
As I said in the beginning of this post Satan has tried to copy and corrupt everything God has put in place. God's original Church at it's inception was made up primarily of Jews. Paul and all the apostles were Jews as were for the most part the first thousands of converts. As the church grew and the good news of the gospel went out we the Gentiles embraced the message and God's church was formed and grew like wildfire. Satan wanted no part of this and did whatever he could to taint the original message and taint the operating instructions we go by.....the bible. Satan did this in large part by infiltrating this growing church and the amalgamation of the eastern and western branches.....Constantinople and Rome. When the Roman branch of the church finally took power it brought into the church multiple pagan / Satanic rituals and teachings. From that point on the Roman Catholic Church has added and added more blasphemies and abominations as the centuries have transpired. This Satanic Catholic Church tried to wipe out God's true Christian churches and their followers murdering millions of them until Napoleon Bonaparte put an end to it.
 
There was a time when my ancestors from Europe had a choice, die or convert to the Roman Catholic Church. They were weak and chose life. The first few generations after that stayed Catholic because of fear and as time went on generation after generation never knew why they were Catholics. Certainly if there was something wrong or evil with this religion our fathers or grandfathers would have left the church. And also it was drummed into their heads at a young age that it was the only true church and if you left or went to another church you would surely go to hell. Catholics were never encouraged to read their bibles (my people perish for the lack of knowledge) and the services were in Latin consequently they never knew the myriad of blasphemies and abominations that permeated their religion. When you compare Catholic doctrine and practices with God's word from the bible you find that Satan's corruption of the Catholic Church was completely successful.
 
Warn your Catholic friends........time is short........the rapture and the great tribulation is knocking on our doors........hopefully our Catholic friends and relatives won't go down with the ship