Barry Amundsen (18 Feb 2012)
"Bruce Warner, are these scriptures all the rapture? And where is pre-trib rapture in scripture?"

Hi Bruce,
 
I welcome your participation and point of view to our mostly "pre-trib" fellowship and am humbly privileged to answer your questions which I believe are sincere.
 
Right away, I have to say that I do not agree that the scriptures you quote are describing the rapture of the church because if they did then you would have a point, that the gathering mentioned is immediately after the tribulation.
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I believe that we ALL can agree that the four previous scriptures are ALL describing the 'same event' which is the rapture of the Church.
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I believe that whatever this gathering is after the tribulation it is not the same gathering as the rapture because the rapture must be before the tribulation. How can I say that, you must be asking? And your next question:
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Where, in Scripture, can a 'pre-tribulation' rapture be justified to refute these aforementioned Scriptures that state the rapture happens AFTER or FOLLOWING "the tribulation of those days" which is referring to the "shortened" tribulation "cut short" by the rapture ?
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I can't imagine that you have not seen these scriptures before but I also can't imagine that you have seen them and yet still hold to your problem with this because the following scriptures make it clear to me.
 
Revelation 3:
 10.  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 
If Jesus keeps us from the hour that is not the same as keeping us safe within that hour is it? No, from the hour itself means not even in the time/space continuum at all but entirely removed from the hour itself which would require the rapture being before the hour of temptation or tribulation can begin. Please don't confuse THE tribulation with general tribulation which Jesus said in the world we shall have tribulation but there is a specific time period designated the great tribulation which is God's wrath that we are not appointed to and a specific time of such horrible tribulation that Jesus said no other time in the history of the nations could be compared to it nor shall it ever become like this again after.
 
Here's another one:
 
Isaiah 26:
 19.  Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
 20.  Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
 21.  For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
Dead shall live and the earth casting out the dead keeps this passage from merely speaking of any natural hiding behind natural doors or in earthly chambers but is speaking of the rapture away from earth to safe locations while the tribulation is going on. There is a constellation in the "Mazzaroth" or "Star Gospel" which speaks of this hiding place as a place of traveler's rest and is a temporary dwelling place like a hotel where we will be kept safe while the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. The constellation is know popularly as Cancer the Crab but was originally more like a sheepfold and the crab part was adopted because of the powerful claw-like strength of the hold on us which no enemy can break through or free. No one can snatch us out of His hand. 
 
Isaiah 57
 1.  The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
 
One of my favorites happened when I was challenged to answer this same question by a man who was among a group of patriots and Christians who were busy storing up supplies in the mountains getting ready to survive the tribulation and he invited me to join them, but he also wanted to know the reason for my hope that we would be raptured before the tribulation and not have to be here for it. I decided to pray very hard for a good answer to give to him which I promised I would do by letter (back in 1996 e mail was not as common yet). I wanted God to answer this for me once and for all because this was a very good opportunity for me to also prepare if we were meant to do so. I was prepared to drop my pre-trib hope if God instructed me to and begin to also join these folks in their plans to survive the trib, but I wanted God to tell me what to do. So I prayed earnestly for God's answer to me and His answer was that He wanted me to read Psalm 11, and that would be my answer.
 
I was astonished at the perfection of this answer in addressing this very detailed specific question. Here is that Psalm:
 
Psalms 11
 1.  In the Lord put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
 2.  For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.
 3.  If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
 4.  The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
 5.  The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
 6.  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
 7.  For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
 
This is so specific to the very question I was asking of God. It says I will trust God to deliver me from the evil of this world and so how can you say that I should flee as a bird to your mountain and store supplies with hope to be delivered that way when God is in heaven and that is where He will take me so that I will behold Him and He will behold me face to face in His throne room. I was not even familiar with this Psalm when He told me to read it so you can imagine my surprise and delight and renewed confidence upon reading this and never again have I doubted that the rapture is before the tribulation not after it. If others desire to prepare for the tribulation up in the mountains and hope to survive it up there, that is for them to decide, but this passage given to me by God upon my specific request tells me that I need not join them nor prepare anything here.
 
I also find it very interesting that if there is any truth or substance to the idea presented by J. R. Church that the Psalms may relate prophetically to the time we are in as Psalm numbers to dates with the book of Psalms being the 19th book in the Bible and Psalm 11 would then relate to 1911, this is very significant in that the foundations were begun to be destroyed by the wicked at that very time when they met secretly at Jekyll Island in a gun club to lay the secret plans of what would become the Federal Reserve system that would destroy the foundations of this country. So the question is asked what shall the righteous do in the face of this situation, flee to the mountains as a bird? Or trust in the Lord and join Him in His holy temple and throne room in heaven?
 
I know that there are other scriptures besides these but these should give you at least some idea where my confidence comes from. Also when Jesus said when you see these things BEGIN to come to pass then lift your heads your redemption draws nigh. He could have said when you see these things begin to come to pass then store up food and weapons and supplies because you will need to last for the duration before I will come to get you. That is why it is called the blessed hope and not the dreaded despair that we must endure the worst time since there was a nation.