Mercer (17 Feb 2011)
"John B (16 Feb 2011) -I will answer each of your questions."

Hello John B,
I always knew someone would respond close to the way you did. And having this dialog and searching the scriptures will be a joy for us. I am not a gifted writer but will aim to do my best.

John B (16 Feb 2011)
"RE: Mercer---The fifth seal--Raptured showing up in heaven"

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion concerning the fifth seal. You say that the untold millions of people from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues that are standing before the throne and before the Lamb in white robes in Rev.7:9-17----are not the raptured Church but those killed by the Antichrist.
Answer  #1
Yes, John, they are the slain of the tribulation. Compare them to the Elders (discussed further on)
Elders: Rev.:4:4-Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Tribulation Saints: Notice the sequence !!
1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on  1 conquest.

 3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to 2 make people kill each other(WAR). To him was given a large sword.

 5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “3. two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages,[b] and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”(FAMINE DUE TO WAR) 

 7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to 4.  kill by sword(PROBABLE BEHEADING), famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Do you see here, after war, killing by the sword, and famine many die? Those that maintained "the testimony" got white robes. No Crowns.

 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain(Have all the raptured believers been slain?) because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been. (THIS IS NOT AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF ALL BELIEVERS. Please Note these saints are not given crowns.

ONLY the Bride of Christ are given crowns.

By Jack Kelly

Explaining Our Crowns

Q. I was wondering about the crowns that we can earn. Why do we want to get them? How can we get them? When will we give them to God?  Will everyone have them or will some have none?

A. After we’re saved, we have the opportunity to win rewards, or crowns, which will be presented to us immediately after the Rapture. (1 Cor. 4:5) Jesus Himself will make the presentation in what will be the biggest awards ceremony ever in the history of mankind.

This awards ceremony is sometimes called the Bema Seat judgment, after the Greek word for judgment, because of the similarity. In the ancient Olympics, judges awarded ivy crowns (called stephanos) to the winners of the various events at the “Bema Seat”, or judges stand, just like they award medals in our time.

The New Testament lists five categories in which crowns will be awarded to qualified believers.

These crowns are identified as the Everlasting Crown (Victory) in 1 Cor 9:25, the Crown of the Soul Winner in Phil 4:1 and 1 Thes 2:19, the Crown of Righteousness in 2 Tim 4:8, the Crown of Life in James 1:12 and Rev 2:10, and the Crown of Glory in 1 Peter 5:4. You can read more on how we get them and why by reading “How To Win Your Crowns.

According to Rev. 4:10-11 we lay our crowns before the throne.  Since the Rapture takes place in Rev. 4 and the Bema Seat judgment follows immediately, we apparently do this right after receiving them. 1 Cor 3:10-15 implies that not everyone will receive crowns since it’s not just what we do but our motives for doing it that are judged.  The only acceptable motive is pure gratitude for what we’ve been given.  Any thought of self promotion will disqualify us.

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 John asks Mercer::

 Are you one of the crowd that believes that the rapture happens before any of the seals are opened in Rev.5

I have poured over the Book of revelation for 3 years now. I have listened and read every position there is. And once "you see it-YOU SEE IT" I saw it so clearly without anyone telling me what to think or what I was reading. THE BIBLE INTERPRETS ITSELF.

Let me see If I can show you.

Rev 1:10

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

 12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

So we have Jesus in the midst of the Candlesticks. What are the candlesticks?

Jesus tells John what they are.

Rev 1: 19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Where are the 7 candlesticks after John see the door open and hears "come up here?

Revelation 4

 1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

After what? After the 7 churches with Laodician being the last. We are that church!! So where are the candlestands/church once the church reaches a "Laodician" state?

You'll clearly see.

2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

 4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

By golly.......there's the Church

Elders.....thrones......white gowns......crowns.........7 candlestands

6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

 7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

 8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

 9And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

 10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

 11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Rev 4:4   And 2532 round about 2943 the throne 2362 [were] four 5064 and 2532 twenty 1501 seats 2362: and 2532 upon 1909 the seats 2362 I saw 1492 four 5064 and 2532 twenty 1501 elders 4245 sitting 2521 , clothed 4016 in 1722 white 3022 raiment 2440; and 2532 they had 2192 on 1909 their 846 heads 2776 crowns 4735 of gold 5552.

Cite This Page:

Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for presbyteros (Strong's 4245)". Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2011. 16 Feb 2011. < http://
Strongs=G4245&t=KJV >

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Look who welcomes the tribulation saints !

 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They died/sacrificed themselves therefore the blood on robes.

 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.The memory of their suffering is taken away and of those who where left behind.

Well John, I hope you are very excited to see you go through no part of the tribulation. Your heart should be singing praise to Jesus- for he shall be rescueing you very soon

And hopefully shows others we are not in the tribulation and no seals have been broken yet. Oh, we are close.