John B (22 Feb 2011)
"RE: Mercer--Rev.5 "not" proof of pretrib rapture"

Once again I respectfully disagree with you . And I believe that if you carefully read the verses in Rev. 5 you'll find that the raptured church does not show up there.
You highlight in verse 8  "prayers of the saints", well prayers of the saints are not physical saints showing up in heaven.
You highlighted in verse 9 " hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation", if you read the context of the verse the four beasts and the twenty four elders have just composed a new song and the part you highlighted is part of a song and not the church showing up in heaven literally but  showing up in a song.
You highlighted in verse 11 "the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands", I believe you assume that this is the raptured church. Again, read the context of the sentence, John very specifically was talking about angels. And along with the angels were 4 beasts and 24 elders. The number of these angels was a number John could not count and he referenced them as, ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands and thousands of angels.
Nowhere does the Raptured Church show up in Rev.5 except in "previews of coming attractions" so to speak. And as I have said before, with a earthshaking monumental event of the magnitude of the Rapture, wouldn't you think it would make the "front page" of God's Holy scripture? Would you expect to find this beyond historic event vaguely hidden in a song in rev.5?   Or did God display it as "front page news" in His Holy scripture somewhere else? He did indeed in Rev. 7:9-17, He gives us front page billing with our glorious arrival in heaven after the sixth seal is opened. And there is nothing vague about this description of our arrival and who it is that is arriving.  "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes".
I as many believers believe the first four seals have already been opened. We will not know when the fifth seal is opened because that takes place in heaven and may have already been opened as well. And when the total accumulated number of the gentile church has been reached, a number only God knows, then Jesus will open the sixth seal. When He does so the earth will experience a world wide earthquake and His Church will be raptured. I believe the world wide earthquakes will cause volcanoes to erupt all over the planet making the sun look black and the moon red. Our earthly sky will roll up like a scroll and when it is open--- maybe to a different dimension--- God will cast Satan and his fallen angels to earth. They will be coming down as we are going up. And I believe that will happen in the spring.
In Christ,
John B
Mercer (21 Feb 2011)
"Revelation 5-proof of a pre-trib rapture"

Going back and forth regarding the souls under the alter was a good thing for me. God's Word is rich with clues. And I saw one I should have seen in Revelation 5

Revelation 5

 1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

 5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

 6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

This starts a momentious time of praise. We know our prayers are finely going to be answered

 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Praise God, we've been redeemed! Isn't this what every Dove has been praying for? Please Lord, Come for us. Not one seal has been broken. Has it? No.

 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The souls under the alter serve in the Temple.

 11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

 12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

 13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.